Evangelical Protestants and the GOP

[Elok]

My point was rather that childrens beliefs are not unquestioning. They can be the most rigid adherents to a belief, but usually only until they come up against something that directly contradicts that belief. They can then change their entire worldview with a speed that most of us would find completely dizzying.

But, aside from such a belief being obviously superficial in nature and not very sophisticated, it's based on a totally intellectual understanding. The problem here is of forming a proper relationship with God, and while children bond quite well, they don't mature in their relationships until adulthood.

I'm jealous, I've had kids around a lot but I don't have any of my own yet. Hope you're cherishing every second.

Maybe not the inconsolable screaming from intestinal discomfort seconds. But it is quite fun, yes.

What happened to man being made in gods image? I've heard that line of reasoning before, and it just doesnt feel like it fits here. On one hand man and god are supposed to be very close, but on the other god is supposed to be completely outside of humanities understanding. How does that work?

You and a resident of the Amazon rainforest are basically the exact same animal, yet differences of background/upbringing/culture render you so different that there's no way you could accurately predict his actions, nor he yours. Even if each were thoroughly educated in the other's ways, you're still used to thinking in ways shaped by your own experiences, and those would color your understanding of Amazon guy--and vice versa. Now, take all that, and add God being omniscient, omnipresent and unbound by time. We are like God in that we have the freedom to shape our own consciousness. Probably in other ways too, which we don't totally understand. But the vast gap in experience and understanding remains.

I just want some reason to believe the things I believe in. If gods last revelation was 2000 years ago, then it hardly seems surprising that so many of us roll to disbelieve.

I can appreciate that. But, as JM said, divine revelation isn't limited to the explicit (also, it is true that we have the same creative urge).

[Kidlicious]

Actually its nothing but logical. Religious beliefs generally require you to accept something that exists outside the logical structure of the world, god is not a logical entity which is why it comes under the heading of supernatural. All your 'logic' requires you to already accept a raft of supernatural concepts, because none of it makes sense alone. A virgin giving birth to a messaih is not a logical thing unless you already believe in the existence of god and his power to step outside the rules of science.

Logic is not just what you consider reasonable or common sense. The fact that you think that it is is not logical. You're assuming that we are able to use reason to determine what god is and what his nature might be. You're projecting your own bias into your conclusion. You assume god would think just as you do, and since it can't be shown that he does you conclude that he doesn't exist.

[kentonio]

You and a resident of the Amazon rainforest are basically the exact same animal, yet differences of background/upbringing/culture render you so different that there's no way you could accurately predict his actions, nor he yours. Even if each were thoroughly educated in the other's ways, you're still used to thinking in ways shaped by your own experiences, and those would color your understanding of Amazon guy--and vice versa. Now, take all that, and add God being omniscient, omnipresent and unbound by time. We are like God in that we have the freedom to shape our own consciousness. Probably in other ways too, which we don't totally understand. But the vast gap in experience and understanding remains.

Yet we both have to live within the same laws of the universe. If it was simply a difference in experience and thought, then that would be fine, but with god we're having to allow for literally everything to be different. I don't see how you can claim any comparison at all between man and god if we don't even live under the same universal constants.

[Jon Miller]

The Bible says that God decided to create man in His image.

This is a difference between man and the animals. If you take the Bible as a spiritual revelation form God.

We don't really claim comparison, in fact the relationship as described in the Bible makes it clear that God's wisdom and intelligence is not the same as man's.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Yet we both have to live within the same laws of the universe. If it was simply a difference in experience and thought, then that would be fine, but with god we're having to allow for literally everything to be different. I don't see how you can claim any comparison at all between man and god if we don't even live under the same universal constants.

You're saying that the creator of the physical laws is bound by them. That doesn't make sense.

[kentonio]

You're saying that the creator of the physical laws is bound by them. That doesn't make sense.

Actually I take major issue with the idea of a creator being able to create the physical laws in the first place, in that case what are the physical laws that bind the creator?

[Kidlicious]

Actually I take major issue with the idea of a creator being able to create the physical laws in the first place, in that case what are the physical laws that bind the creator?

Wt...? You think the physical laws came into being by randomness or something? Please explain.

No physical laws bind the creator. He is omnipotent. He create all the physical laws.

[kentonio]

Wt...? You think the physical laws came into being by randomness or something? Please explain.

I think they are what they are, not something that required creation. You talk about a god as if it can exist in absolute nothingness, and to me that makes literally no sense. Did this god living through an infinity of nothingness just get bored one day and decide to create a universe? Are we just the latest in an infinite sequence of universes created by some creator figure who has nothing better to do with his time? If some supernatural being has the power to create universes, isn't it a bit weird that he/she supposedly cares about the motivations/actions of an insignificant creature on a single planet amongst trillions who's entire lifespan lasts an infintesimally small amount of time anyway?

These are just a few of the things that bother me about your god.

[Kidlicious]

They are what they are is not an answer.

[kentonio]

They are what they are is not an answer.

Sure it is. I don't see them as a variable but rather a constant.

[kentonio]

Or to put it another way, it feels like discussing what shade of black the absence of light is.

[Elok]

Yet we both have to live within the same laws of the universe. If it was simply a difference in experience and thought, then that would be fine, but with god we're having to allow for literally everything to be different. I don't see how you can claim any comparison at all between man and god if we don't even live under the same universal constants.

It's very hard to say how such a being would think at all; He manages to be simultaneously aware of all events across all times. To the extent that His behavior can be compared to anything, however, it's comparable to ours. I suppose that's not saying much, but it seems it's enough for Him to empathize.

[Kidlicious]

Sure it is. I don't see them as a variable but rather a constant.

If you're denying causality and claiming to be rational you need to explain yourself.

[Jon Miller]

As far as physics, the universe, and religion goes, I recommend:

Polkinghorne (I already mentioned him) - Theorist, left physics and became a anglican priest
Pollard - Theorist, led the most important us research lab, worked on the atomic bomb, became an episcopal priest
Tipler (I haven't read anything by him) - Theorist + Mathematician, still in physics, became religious by after being a physicist

The first two I would recommend to anyone who wants to think about religion seriously.

JM
(all three are successful, maybe especially the first 2?)