It's interesting that the materialist types think of creationism as christianity even though those are just some christians.
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Originally posted by Elok View PostChildren rebel against authority just as much as anybody else.
Originally posted by Elok View PostHow? Are you talking about flaws in human anatomy, like the blind spot in the eye? Even that's not really "irreducible complexity," though...wait, are you talking about the argument that God must necessarily be even more complex than His creation, and so demands a creator Himself? That's a fine answer to the flawed argument from nature--a sort of debater's judo, using their own argument against them--but it depends on the assumption that our deductions about a thing are applicable to its maker.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostIt's interesting that the materialist types think of creationism as christianity even though those are just some christians.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostNo, because irreducable complexity is proved to be false in terms of evolution. There is always another step further down that can be found if you look hard enough.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
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Originally posted by Kidicious View PostI mean both the creationinsts and the materialists think god is what we expect him to be. Creationists are materialists in a way.
Originally posted by KidI have no idea if you are right or not, as I don't find the subject interesting or important. But I meant that you both claim that god either exists or doesn't exist based on the compelexity or simplicity of the universe.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostIt's pretty human to look for some kind of understanding that fits within the framework of our world and our experiences. You are quite unusual in that you seem ok with the concept of a creator figure who you don't feel any need to understand in human terms.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostTrue, but children are also great at questioning things. Children will accept almost anything as long as they find an explanation that seems reasonable to them.
Absolutely, but the alternative is assuming that a maker must have its own set of rules that are completely outside our own rules of understanding, and if thats the case then you can't also use a creator as an explanation for our own lack of understanding about creation. Well I suppose you could, but that really does become a bit of a lazy answer.
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Originally posted by Kidicious View PostWhat does it matter if it's human or not? You're reasoning isn't logical, yet you keep telling us that ours isn't logical.
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Originally posted by Elok View PostIf God is readily apparent, it's not a matter of explanation, but of obedience, which demands ascetic discipline. We're to be like little children in our openness and acceptance. They're wanting in certain other respects. Like delayed gratification, for example.
Originally posted by Elok View PostWhat do you mean by using the creator as an explanation for our lack of understanding? Are you talking about creationism? I'm fine with the methodological materialism of science. But that doesn't seem to be what you mean.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostTrue, but children are also great at questioning things. Children will accept almost anything as long as they find an explanation that seems reasonable to them.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostChildren change their opinions very quickly though and tend away from dogma once they have found it to be wanting. You tell a child to just shut up and accept something and whats the most normal response? "BUT WHY!?!?!?!?!".
I mean that yes we draw conclusions about the rules that bind a creator of something from the things that they create, in this case the universe. If we step beyond that and assume that the creator is able to work within a set of rules outside our understanding then it stops being anything worth talking about because its basically handing over a blank cheque.
EDIT: You are correct that there's not much point talking about God's nature--at least, not based on scientific knowledge. It can only be known, as in the example, by revelation. I don't view this as laziness, natch, but as an unfortunate reflection of the way things are.
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View PostMaybe you undermine you position on reasonableness when you realize children have a far greater unquestioning faith in God than teens or adults do.
Originally posted by Elok View PostYes, but this isn't just a matter of belief, but of practice. I'm thinking of the "terrible twos" here. But admittedly, I don't have experience raising children. Yet. He's only seven weeks old now, all I really know is that he pukes a lot and can sense when we're doing something productive or enjoyable while he sleeps.
Originally posted by Elok View PostSuppose you're an alien with a completely different physiology, psychology and environment from ours, trying to deduce truths about humanity by looking at some stuff we made. You might come to some correct conclusions, broadly speaking, and some very incorrect ones. You look at a chair--but your species isn't bipedal and, for one reason or another, doesn't need to rest that way (maybe you live on a gas giant planet and float around all the time). So you come up with some alternative explanation which makes great sense to your species and absolutely none for humans. Barring an actual human showing up and letting you poke at him to figure out how he works (or outright telling you about himself), there's really not much you can do.
Originally posted by Elok View PostEDIT: You are correct that there's not much point talking about God's nature--at least, not based on scientific knowledge. It can only be known, as in the example, by revelation. I don't view this as laziness, natch, but as an unfortunate reflection of the way things are.
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Man is a creator just like God.
Many Christians believe that God continues to reveal himself to others. Not in the 'Christ came and lived with us sense' but in inspiration, dreams, and so on.
Every Christian tradition places some respect on tradition, for this reason.
I think Polkinghorne had a good book about it? (have you read anything by him?)
JMJon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
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