Evangelical Protestants and the GOP

[Kidlicious]

Dude, this isn't Star Trek, and you aren't Spock. Everyone believes in different Reason. It's not one thing that everyone agrees with. But Jesus Christ is the Truth.

[kentonio]

Dude, this isn't Star Trek, and you aren't Spock. Everyone believes in different Reason. It's not one thing that everyone agrees with.

Logic and reason are not opinions for goodness sake! You can disagree over anything, but that doesn't make your positions logical or reasonable. If you don't have any argument to support your positions other than 'I said it so it must be true' then you're probably not applying either logic or reason.

But Jesus Christ is the Truth.

See above.

[Kidlicious]

You said it wasn't logical. That's your opinion, unless you can prove otherwise. If you can't, then it's just your opinion against mine.

[Kidlicious]

I don't even know what you're talking about, saying it's not logical. You don't know what logic is.

[Kidlicious]

Or how about this. What if I were to say that there's nothing logical about your opinion that we weren't created, that we are the result of randomness. That statement wouldn't mean anything else except that I disagree with your opinion. It's got nothing to do with logic.

[kentonio]

Or how about this. What if I were to say that there's nothing logical about your opinion that we weren't created, that we are the result of randomness. That statement wouldn't mean anything else except that I disagree with your opinion. It's got nothing to do with logic.

Depends if that statement can be supported by a line of logical reasoning. You could make a pretty strong argument for the necessity of a creator figure in the creation process for instance and use logic to support it.

Arguing that the salvation story makes any sense though would require you to explain exactly what being saved actually means and how Jesus death further those goals. Basically if theres a point where you cannot support one of your arguments, then it stops being reasonable.

[Kidlicious]

Depends if that statement can be supported by a line of logical reasoning. You could make a pretty strong argument for the necessity of a creator figure in the creation process for instance and use logic to support it.

Arguing that the salvation story makes any sense though would require you to explain exactly what being saved actually means and how Jesus death further those goals. Basically if theres a point where you cannot support one of your arguments, then it stops being reasonable.

Again, you are expecting God to be who you think he is. Why should he not be who I say he is because you can't put 2 and 2 together?

[kentonio]

Explain what each of those 2's actually are, and we might be able to do some maths.

[Kidlicious]

Explain what each of those 2's actually are, and we might be able to do some maths.

When did I say that I will do the math? Do you think it's logical to believe that all truth is what we expect it to be, or that we should be able to do the math?

[kentonio]

I think its logical to expect things to be logical. Science tends to show that if something doesn't make sense, its because we don't yet understand the underlying mechanisms behind it. Therefore I don't trust answers that can't be supported by a chain of logic. When you say something like 'Jesus is truth' I want to know what 'truth' is supposed to mean, and for you to justify that. Same when you talk about Jesus saving us, I want to know what saving actually means and how his death helped with that.

It's not about me saying I know better, its me asking for an explanation that actually makes sense in a logical way.

[Kidlicious]

It comes down to what I've been saying. You assume God should be what you expect him to be, with out seriously considering the possibility that he doesn't what to be what people expect him to be. You see no value in someone not wanting to be what people expect them to be.

Like I said, there's nothing about you that should know about all these things. There's nothing about me either, or anyone else. We are all ignorant and wicked. It is in no way logical to just assume that for that reason we weren't created. That's just your ignorance of human nature.

[Kidlicious]

I think its logical to expect things to be logical. Science tends to show that if something doesn't make sense, its because we don't yet understand the underlying mechanisms behind it. Therefore I don't trust answers that can't be supported by a chain of logic. When you say something like 'Jesus is truth' I want to know what 'truth' is supposed to mean, and for you to justify that. Same when you talk about Jesus saving us, I want to know what saving actually means and how his death helped with that.

It's not about me saying I know better, its me asking for an explanation that actually makes sense in a logical way.

Then you are a skeptic - NOT!

You just ignore the possiblity that God does not want to be what you expect him to be.

It's like this, you are just dismissing all of these things, theology and such, as nonsense, when you really don't have a clue about it. That's foolish.

[Elok]

Please tell me you didn't just say that god is cool as long as he's not actually real...

No, you misunderstand. I'm saying we have a tendency towards what's generally classified as a form of idolatry. We generally don't want to worship God as He is, but as we would like Him to be. We create a mental image and, without thinking about it, assign it certain traits. God is this cool guy, so obviously he approves of me, agrees with certain opinions of mine, etc. We put words in his mouth, listen to them, and then call ourselves obedient. The real God is unknowable and tends to ask things of us that we don't actually want to do.

An extreme example of this would be a Christian with philandering tendencies who tells himself it's okay because he's in love with these women and "God approves of love," ignoring the eighty times God's on record in the Bible saying NO ADULTERY. But we all do it to some extent. When he said X, he didn't really mean it like that! I, for one, have to continually remind myself that turn the other cheek applies to people who insult you on the internet, even if they're acting totally dickish, even if they don't appreciate the whole cheek-turning thing at all. It'd be a lot easier to believe that it's totally understandable and cool to talk down to people when they're being real douchebags. Sometimes I catch myself believing that, tacitly, despite all efforts to the contrary. As one Orthodox writer put it, "true faith is in a constant dialogue with doubt, for our every image of God is an idol which must be smashed." Though he was thinking more of our anthropomorphizing tendencies, which are less obviously harmful.

[kentonio]

Then you are a skeptic - NOT!

You just ignore the possiblity that God does not want to be what you expect him to be.

It's like this, you are just dismissing all of these things, theology and such, as nonsense, when you really don't have a clue about it. That's foolish.

Funny how whenever the religious get asked to justify or support their arguments about religion they always seem to resort to 'You just don't understand it!'. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe we do understand it and what we understand is that it doesn't actually make any sense when you strip away the pretty coverings?

[Jon Miller]

How much time have you spent trying to understand it?

Just 'academically', I am not even talking about 'experientially'.

JM