Evangelical Protestants and the GOP

[kentonio]

A reason to bother, I imagine. It wouldn't accomplish much, if anything.

Imagine the Hulk. But like Jesus!! **** yeah people would be impressed!!

[Imran Siddiqui]

'I died for your sins' sounds all heroic and stuff, but he didn't jump in front of a bullet for us. He died pointlessly and achieving nothing in practical terms from his death. Why would the world have been any worse if he'd just not gone and gotten crucified?

He didn't just die for personal sins, but for the brokenness and unreconcilation of all Creation. Jesus came to fulfill Isreal's story of their constant attempts to enter into complete reconcilation with God, but they'd always fall short. It was for God to engage this reconcilation and He did so by coming to Earth, becoming fully human as well as fully divine and dying for the sins of the world & resurrecting after conquering sin and death allowing for Man and God to be reconciled once again. And I think the world has gotten better with that reconcilation having been achieved and the Holy Spirit working through His followers who wish to redeem the world (though as imperfect beings, we have fallen short and gone astray, though now we can go back and be redeemed by God and shed our sin and guilt and work for God anew, even after our failings).

[giblets]

A reason to bother, I imagine. It wouldn't accomplish much, if anything.

So God is incapable of offering sufficient proof to change someone's mind about the existence of God?

[Jon Miller]

I know of people who if they say "There is a God" spelled out in the physics data would erase it....

Additionally, as noted, miracles would not serve to prove to the skeptic that He was more than a sufficiently advanced alien.

That being said, God wants to give people a choice. That means that I do not expect unarguable proof of God.

If there was complete and certain and obvious proof of the existence of God, I would have to reevaluate my world view.

JM

[Elok]

So God is incapable of offering sufficient proof to change someone's mind about the existence of God?

I believe that counts as a complex-question fallacy; it assumes human beings are genuinely rational and will follow evidence to its logical conclusion regardless of that conclusion's desirability. As well as assuming that our lack of belief in the existence of God is the main problem here.

[giblets]

I believe that counts as a complex-question fallacy; it assumes human beings are genuinely rational and will follow evidence to its logical conclusion regardless of that conclusion's desirability. As well as assuming that our lack of belief in the existence of God is the main problem here.

So you don't think there are any people who think Christianity is desirable but not credible? Or if only a small number of such people exist, God won't bother to do anything about it?

[Elok]

Imagine the Hulk. But like Jesus!! **** yeah people would be impressed!!

They would, no doubt, be very impressed. But that wouldn't accomplish anything desirable. It would yield a mixed crowd of sycophants looking for special favors, angry rebels, and resentful slaves. We're presently in a state of futile rebellion against God. His showing up would merely give us a target to shoot at with our pathetic marshmallow guns.

[Elok]

So you don't think there are any people who think Christianity is desirable but not credible? Or if only a small number of such people exist, God won't bother to do anything about it?

If you're demanding proof, you're in the wrong mindset anyway. Reason can dispel doubts, but faith is won by beauty. Be that as it may, I think there are a variety of reasons why it just wouldn't work--even most Christians, myself included, would privately rather worship our conception of God than the real thing, and would resent the intrusion of His reality. Certainly I think a public descent-from-the-clouds deal would lose far more souls than it saved.

[giblets]

The real God is some kind of hideous monstrosity compared to the fake image of God you have in your mind? I can see how a powerful dictator who watches your every move and knows what you're thinking could scare people but I didn't know Christians also found it abhorrent.

[Elok]

Not exactly. But we tend, as someone I once read but can't remember put it, to think of Him as this friendly, mildly senile grandpa who sits there smiling and approving of us without asking much in return. An authority figure with real orders and expectations is a real drag by comparison.

Human beings tend to do this with all sorts of things, not just God. Haven't you ever caught yourself dealing with or relating to people not as they are, but as you would like them to be? You idolize a girl from a distance, but when you work up the nerve to talk to her, her voice is more nasal than you expected and she's kind of petty. You're eager to meet your dad, whom you haven't seen for years. You remember all the fun you used to have. What you don't remember is his collection of outmoded, embarrassing and often offensive political views, which he reminds you of by rambling about them for the whole trip back from the airport. You prefer your airbrushed fantasy to the more complex reality. The same is true of childhood haunts, exotic foreign locations, politicians, institutions...and God.

This is ten thousand posts for me. Yikes.

[Lorizael]

This is ten thousand posts for me. Yikes.

Are you going to request that your title be changed so as not to break the first commandment?

[Kidlicious]

Why would I be thankful for something that doesn't make any sense? He created us and yet needed to suffer and die in order to save us, despite him being all seeing, all powerful and everywhere? Does that make sense to you?

You're ignoring the fact, or you are ignorant of the fact, that we need saving. True, he created us as we are (imperfect), but there's nothing that doesn't make sense about creating imperfect beings and then saving them. Yes, it all makes sense.

[kentonio]

Not exactly. But we tend, as someone I once read but can't remember put it, to think of Him as this friendly, mildly senile grandpa who sits there smiling and approving of us without asking much in return. An authority figure with real orders and expectations is a real drag by comparison

Please tell me you didn't just say that god is cool as long as he's not actually real...

You're ignoring the fact, or you are ignorant of the fact, that we need saving. True, he created us as we are (imperfect), but there's nothing that doesn't make sense about creating imperfect beings and then saving them. Yes, it all makes sense.

Actually there is literally nothing logical or that makes sense about creating a species of creatures deliberately flawed, then sitting back and watching them tear each other to peices for millenia, and then turning up to a small group of them and showing off with a few parlour tricks, and hoping that the word will spread over a few millenia. Causing it should be pointed out, millions to die in religious wars as those who were not lucky enough to live in parts of the world where the message arrived end up questioning the impartiality of some desert goat herders. If that makes sense to you, then your brain works in a very different way to mine.

[Kidlicious]

You don't know what logic is. And you're stating your opinion as though it were fact. It doesn't make a difference what you think makes sense. You are ignorant of all the things you talk about.

[kentonio]

You don't know what logic is. And you're stating your opinion as though it were fact. It doesn't make a difference what you think makes sense. You are ignorant of all the things you talk about.

Dude seriously..

Logic is not some bendy semantic babble that you can twist to mean whatever you want. If something is logical then you should be able to draw a clear like of rational argument that proves its rationality. It's not about opinion, its about reason. You keep accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being ignorant and just stating 'opinion' and yet you completely fail to actually justify any of it.

If you are in fact correct, please show how any of it is logical or factual.