Pros and Cons of Proving God Exists?

[Robert]

That sounds about right. I don't think you can reject a thought, but you can pray about it and read the Bible. That usually works for me. I think the point in the Bible is to not judge people for sexual deviancy because we all have the same thoughts. So we all sin.

A thought is not wrong. A wrong desire it.
Without thoughts we wouldn't do anything except ad hoc action. (which would be worse).
For young men to grow into a healthy sexual relation they need to have fantasies about sex first. And also to be in a healthy sexual relation you need to have fantasies about sex. Men and women who stop fantasizing about having sex with each other will eventually stop having sex with each other.

BTW, this doesn't only work for sex but for everything.
Sports players who say that they never dreamed of making this goal in the final match of the world championship do not only lie, they're also crazy, because dreaming and imagining important moments often in advance helps people to perform better during those moments.

And since sex is not unhealthy or bad or evil, but rather good, cool and nice to have, I see no problems with fantasizing about sex. Desiring the wife of your friend is not good, because true desire will turn into action if the opportunity occurs. And that would not be very good for both your relation with your wife nor for your relation with your friend. And thus it will ruin your life.

[Kidlicious]

Well, I actually love it to see if there's something in there that I didn't see at first.
So don't fear that I will initially reject any new theory. Once I easily accepted that the star that was being followed by the wise men (kings) to Bethlehem did not originate from God but from satan as a tool to let Herod kill all children of Bethlehem, hoping that the Messiah would be one of them. (people hate me for destroying the beautiful story).

Anyway, regarding the garden-story in Gen 2-4....
The impress approach you take, can you explain a bit more first what makes you think that this is the key to the story?

IMHO there are 2 key elements in the story, first the 'unworked garden' that needed workers, which it got after Adam falled and had to work it with sweat in his face.
2ndly it is about the tree of knowledge of wisdom, being like God. What is it to be like God?

I can't comment on your ideas before you explain a tad bit more where you got it from.

Interesting interpretation of the star. Can Satan do such a thing?

I believe in the importance of personal experience and that it makes us who we are. I don't believe that some interpretations are wrong, even though they aren't the original intended meaning of the author, because our interpretations will change over time with more experience and rereading. So since I see the problem of sin in the world as an existential problem, that is when we have an impure heart and don't think existentially, then I will interpret the Bible accordingly and differently from those who do not think in that way.

I probably have a similar interprtation of the Fall of Man story as you do except for the difference that has been mentioned.

[Kidlicious]

A thought is not wrong. A wrong desire it.
Without thoughts we wouldn't do anything except ad hoc action. (which would be worse).
For young men to grow into a healthy sexual relation they need to have fantasies about sex first. And also to be in a healthy sexual relation you need to have fantasies about sex. Men and women who stop fantasizing about having sex with each other will eventually stop having sex with each other.

BTW, this doesn't only work for sex but for everything.
Sports players who say that they never dreamed of making this goal in the final match of the world championship do not only lie, they're also crazy, because dreaming and imagining important moments often in advance helps people to perform better during those moments.

And since sex is not unhealthy or bad or evil, but rather good, cool and nice to have, I see no problems with fantasizing about sex. Desiring the wife of your friend is not good, because true desire will turn into action if the opportunity occurs. And that would not be very good for both your relation with your wife nor for your relation with your friend. And thus it will ruin your life.

I think, like a man, you are placing too much value on sex. It is more important to be a good christian husband and the leader of your family. It is better for young men to think about that much more than sex.

[molly bloom]

Everyone turned into Ben Kenobi while I was away!?!

I'm still an atheist. Welcome back to the Unbelief Club. No fee for joining, no physical parts need be excised, and no bizarre and absurd rituals will be required for entry.

[molly bloom]

You're not even trying anymore - you're contradicting yourself in a matter of minutes instead of in a matter of days

He's been reading too much of 'Dummies For Existentialism'. It's quite turned his head.

Either that or ingesting too much brandy butter or eggnog.

[Elok]

It says a lot that you say he wasn't existentialist and Kierkegaard regarded him as the ultimate existentialist besides maybe Abraham. You're really just getting very annoying. My post was for plomp anyway

Elok, I already said. Do you thonk he dodn't have any thoughts. We don't know what they were but we know they led to his actions. His actions are what count because if he didn't act then he didn't believe his thoughts. He wasn't really an existentialist, not in the total sense.

1. The ultimate existentialist wasn't really an existentialist in the total sense? Who is, then?
2. If we're counting actions, like I said, his were almost the exact opposite of Socrates's, total obedience as opposed to total questioning.

[Kidlicious]

That's an error in writing on my part. I meant to say that if he didn't act in accordance with his beliefs he wouldn't be the ultimate existentialist.

He's like Socrates because they both acted on what they believed, and their beliefs began with what they believed as existing thinkers, not from truth gathered from the outside. Abraham of course obeyed God, but that is because of faith.

[kentonio]

then why wait before delivering the second part, which presumably then meant millions lived and died with a reduced chance of salvation?

The latter is an unfounded assumption which I do not share.

How is it unfounded? If god needed to appear to man as Christ in order to deliver his message about how we should live, then it must mean that message was not already being followed or else what would the point have been? If we were not already following his way, then doesn't that mean that people were less likely to find salvation?

You ask why it wasn't delivered a tad bit easier to humanity? Well, if it was like that then the figurative Adam would not have touched the fruit to start with.

I hate that story. Mankind told to not be curious, not to try and learn. Even if you see the fruit as something else, the whole 'sins of our fathers' thing disgusts me at the best of times.

In my opinion the greatest achievement of creation is a being that can act and decided without the creator having to tell him what to say or what to do. A creation with all kinds of natural resources that can be exploited or used by this self thinking creation.

So why are religious teachings full of the creator figure telling people what to say and do? As you rightly point out, we're pretty good at managing on our own.

I hear what you're saying.... why so difficult?
It's my question as well.
But in the end it comes down to me that it's that difficult because we're that complex.
It's as with the rich prince who wants the girl to love him, not to buy her love.
Maybe that's what God wants. He wants to win us. He doesn't want us to marry us like Hugh Hefner picks his brides.

Occasionally I still get seduced by theology, especially when its discussed with decent, intelligent people. The reason I remain an athiest however is theres always a point where it comes back to that question 'why so difficult?'. Each part of christianity (well most anyway ) can be justified and explained using ideas that have been honed over the last two thousand years by some amazing thinkers, but none of it paints a coherent picture when its all put together. Theres always this massive list of contradictions, and things that sound plausible but really don't make much sense when put under a hard light. God creates us, but deliberately creates us as imperfect, then makes us lust and desire things we are then told we shouldn't have, and wants us to love him despite us being his creation anyway? Shouldn't the truth of something so fundamental be something that doesn't need complex explanation?

[Elok]

Why would you expect theological truth to be less messy than the fundamentals of chemistry or physics or law or medicine or any other human endeavor? In my experience/opinion, if something looks clear-cut and simple, we probably don't understand it correctly yet.

[Elok]

Also, we're discussing a being radically different from ourselves here. We can't expect his motives to make perfect sense from our perspective.

[kentonio]

Why not, we're supposed to be created in his image, no? What good does the complexity, contradictions and mess create? If noone understands the message, and perfectly good people are presumably teaching the wrong message (because not all the religious groups can be right) then surely that just leads to chaos? Unless of course god is actually the Joker from Batman, in which case it makes perfect sense! (sorry.. )

[Kidlicious]

The truth that kentonio wants is like a boring movie that allows you to predict everything that happens next.

[kentonio]

The truth that kentonio wants is like a boring movie that allows you to predict everything that happens next.

No, I want underlying order not a mess of contradictions that lead to millenia of people killing each other for no particularly good reason.

[Kidlicious]

You want to know everything right now.

[Elok]

Why not, we're supposed to be created in his image, no?

Insofar as we have free will--which is hardly nothing--yes. But we're missing the immortality, omnipotence and omniscience that make his POV different from ours.

What good does the complexity, contradictions and mess create? If noone understands the message, and perfectly good people are presumably teaching the wrong message (because not all the religious groups can be right) then surely that just leads to chaos? Unless of course god is actually the Joker from Batman, in which case it makes perfect sense! (sorry.. )

The complexities are a necessary result of our free will, the choices we choose/have chosen to make with that free will, and the difference between God and ourselves. IE, I think the complications are not desirable themselves so much as necessary results of other things which are.