Harper: "The politics of ruthlessness"

[giblets]

Is it normal for Albertans to whine about how they've supposedly been victimized? I though that was Quebec's thing?

[Asher]

Is it normal for Albertans to whine about how they've supposedly been victimized? I though that was Quebec's thing?

Er. Not supposedly.

Historically, the Liberal government uses Alberta for resources and cheap political points in their strong bases (Quebec/Ontario). For example, the NEP was extremely disruptive to the Alberta economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program ) but it sure made gas cheaper in Ontario due to mandated "national" gas prices set by the lovable Liberal government.

Then there was Stephane Dion's "Green Shift" strategy -- a not so subtle wealth transfer regime from the West to the East.

The only party who seriously campaigns in Alberta is the Tories. As a result, the other parties see Alberta as a source of revenue and a way to appeal to their base ("Alberta should give us more money! It's the country's oil, not theirs! ").

Contrast this to Quebec.

Every party panders to their every whim. I have to deal with French coca-cola cans even though French is the 5th most popular language in Alberta. They get billions of dollars each year in free money from Alberta.

[Fake Boris]

Yes. Let's talk about the Liberal leader, 4 leaders ago. I like arbitrarily picking people and times.

My turn: National Energy Policy

Oh oh, and the Green Shift!

As for Chretien:

"I like to do politics with people from the East. Joe Clark and Stockwell Day are from Alberta. They are a different type."

Yeah, Alberta...lets vote for that guy!

Paul Martin though, check him out:
"Alberta can blow me."
-Scott Reid, press secretary for Prime Minister Paul Martin, the official spokesperson for Paul Martin and the Liberal Party

They don't even try.

Well, it's been a long time since the Libs have been willing to openly screw Alberta. You think no politician ever said something like this about Quebec?

[Fake Boris]

Is it normal for Albertans to whine about how they've supposedly been victimized? I though that was Quebec's thing?

Yes. Quebec has made peace with its past a long while ago, though it's the standard cliché to blame us for "politics of resent".

[Uncle Sparky]

Is it normal for Albertans to whine about how they've supposedly been victimized? I though that was Quebec's thing?

Yes, and yes. Albertans whine to maintain economic superiority; Quebecers whine to preserve culture.
They have both had seperatist movements. The Reform party Stephan Harper used to head sprung out of a Western Canadian seperatist movement. He famously wrote an article on 'Building a Firewall around Alberta', that touted economic sovereignty.

[Asher]

Yes, and yes. Albertans whine to maintain economic superiority; Quebecers whine to preserve culture.

To be clear, it's not to maintain superiority. It's to maintain our own economy. The Liberal party of Canada has implemented policies, or tried to implement policies, that benefit Ontario while hurting Alberta.

The early 80s were devastating around here with record unemployment as a result of those policies.

[Fake Boris]

Nothing to do with the oil shock, of course.

[Asher]

Uh. Yeah, that's correct.

The oil shock, from the early to mid 70s, had nothing to do with the NEP's failure in Alberta in the early 80s.

The NEP actively drove foreign investment away, it artificially lowered the price of Canadian oil by a huge amount, and it increased the federal government's take of oil revenues from 10 to 40%. It was an unmitigated disaster.

[Asher]

It has been estimated by a number of different scholars that Alberta lost between $50 billion and $100 billion because of the NEP,[21][22] and that the cost to the average Albertan was about $18,000.[23]

Alberta GDP was between $60 billion and $80 billion annually through the years of the NEP, 1980 to 1986. While it is unclear whether the estimates took into account the decline in world crude oil prices that began only a few months after the NEP came into force, the graph of long-term oil prices show that prices adjusted for inflation did not drop below pre-1980s levels until 1985. Given that the program was cancelled in 1986, the NEP was active for five years which are amongst the most expensive for oil prices on record and the NEP prevented Alberta's economy from fully realising those prices.[20]

.

North American housing prices

As cited in a report by Phillips, Hager and North, the U.S. Office of the Federal Housing Oversight (OFHEO) reported overall declines in real estate prices of between 10% and 15% from 1980 through 1985, the years of the NEP.[25] That same report presents information from the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) showing that during those years (1980–1985) most eastern Canadian markets fell 10%-15% and the Toronto market held relatively steady.[26] In contrast, the CREA historical data shows a decline from 1980 through to 1985 of approximately 20% for Vancouver, Saskatoon and Winnipeg while the drop approached 40% in the oil dominated economies of Edmonton and Calgary,[27] yet through those years oil prices were still historically high (see figure Long-Term Oil Prices, 1861–2007).
[edit] Bankruptcies in Canada

For the period 1980 through 1985, government statistics show that while the overall number of bankruptcies per 1,000 businesses in Canada peaked at 50% above the 1980 rate.[28] During that same time the bankruptcy rate in Alberta's economy rose by 150% after the NEP took effect[29] despite those years being amongst the most expensive for oil prices on record (see figure Long-Term Oil Prices, 1861–2007).

Comparing with other oil-based economies during the NEP years
North Sea Oil Prices and Norway's Trade Balance, 1975-2000. Source: Statistics Norway

In around 1970 Norway started to become an oil dominated export economy comparable to Alberta. As with most of the world's manufacturing economies, Norway's manufacturing experienced recession beginning in the 1970s. However, in the late 1970s the rise in oil prices saw Norway's oil exports grow and provide the nation with a trade surplus (see figure North Sea Oil Prices and Norway's Trade Balance, 1975–2000).

"Norway saw deindustrialization at a more rapid pace than most of her largest trading partners. Due to the petroleum sector, however, Norway experienced high growth rates in all the three last decades of the twentieth century, bringing Norway to the top of the world GDP per capita list at the dawn of the new millennium."[30]

Thus, not all oil based economies suffered as Alberta did during the global slowdown of the early 1980s. Norway experienced an economic boom during the NEP years thanks to the historically high oil prices (see figure Long-Term Oil Prices, 1861–2007). The economic boom of the early 1980s in Norway lasted until the price of oil collapsed in late 1985 just before the NEP was terminated (see figure North Sea Oil Prices and Norway's Trade Balance, 1975–2000).

Given that bankruptcies[29] and real estate[27] did much worse in Alberta than in other parts of Canada and the United States, petroleum exporting economies like Norway performed well,[31] coupled with the estimated loss of between $50 and $100 billion in provincial GDP [19] (at the time, this was an entire year's GDP for the province) due to the NEP during this period, it is plausible the NEP had a negative effect in Alberta.

Perhaps the greatest impact was the NEP's failure to deliver the revenues forecast originally in the 1980 federal budget. Federal deficits had been expected to decrease primarily due to substantial increases in revenues from the oil and gas sector.[10] Instead, by 1983 the Department of Finance had concluded that the federal government had established a structural deficit[11] of 6.2 per cent of GNP ($29.7 billion).[12]

Finally, politically the NEP heightened distrust of the federal government in Western Canada, especially in Alberta where many Albertans believed that the NEP was an intrusion of the federal government into an area of provincial jurisdiction.

[Fake Boris]

I am aware of this study you are posting.

Oil fell from $100 to $30 in 5 years, and that has nothing to do with Alberta's difficulties at the time. Yeah.

[Fake Boris]

By the way, I do not approve of the NEP, but I do think Albertans are grossly exaggerating its detrimental effects.

[Asher]

I am aware of this study you are posting.

Oil fell from $100 to $30 in 5 years, and that has nothing to do with Alberta's difficulties at the time. Yeah.

Are you ****ing stupid or what?

The NEP was 80-86. That was the highest oil price in history (at the time).



As the articles above have said repeatedly, the NEP hamstrung and hurt Alberta at a time of what should've been prosperity due to high oil prices. That's why the Norway comparison is apt.

[Asher]

By the way, I do not approve of the NEP, but I do think Albertans are grossly exaggerating its detrimental effects.

Yeah, you would. What's a year's worth of GDP lost in 5 years? What's record high unemployment and bankruptcies so the ****ers in Quebec and Ontario can pay below market prices for gas, fueling demand for cars (which are made in...Ontario?)

The NEP was devastating, and attempts by some left-wing ignorant Quebecois to understate its effects is an insult to many people.

[Fake Boris]

You'll need more to convince me that it was actually the NEP and nothing else...

[Hauldren Collider]

The only party who seriously campaigns in Alberta is the Tories. As a result, the other parties see Alberta as a source of revenue and a way to appeal to their base ("Alberta should give us more money! It's the country's oil, not theirs! ").

Isn't this legally false? I thought the Canadian constitution stipulated that resources are the property of the province.