My new church

[SlowwHand]

By title it's baptist, which I like because its means to me that they are grounded in Christ/bible. You can quote from any part of the bible and probably not get the stink eye.

They are active wth community works too, which is my favorite way to worship.

Glad you found a home.

[Combat Ingrid]

Yeah, I would understand why that is the case, considering that they would be considered a bit weird in the US too...

JM

It's pretty funny how different things can be between countries that are otherwise very similar on a superficial level. I never ever encountered saying prayers at the dinner table until I moved to Canada. As it in this case was a very international bunch of people no one was directly saying prayers though; instead there was a silent moment where everyone was supposed to silently give whatever prayers their particular religion required. Even so, I was basically thinking "WTF is going on here?"

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, I sort of take a short pause (to pray) before eating, a few of my more international Swedish friends picked up on it, but most have not.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Praying before a meal is a good tradition. I usually forget though.

Soren Kierkegaard criticised the Lutheran church in Denmark in the 19th century. I don't know how the Lutherans are doing in Denmark these days. Maybe it's the same as in Sweden. It's a good thing for a church if you offend most of society. Then the church will grow. It's when your church is a state church or acceptable to the masses that your church will die. I know it's counterintuitive, but it's true. Kiekegaard say's it's better than me.

[Kidlicious]

Glad you found a home.

I still haven't commited, but it's good for now. I'm going to move soon, so I may try another church on that side of town. Thanks though Sloww.

[Dinner]

Religiosity in Sweden plays a limited role compared to the European average. In a 2009 Gallup poll, 17% answered yes to the question "Is religion an important part of your daily life?".[2] Less than 4% of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during an average week; about 2% are regular attendees.[3]

From the Protestant Reformation in the 1530s until 2000, the Lutheran Church of Sweden (Swedish: Svenska kyrkan) was the state church. As of 2010, about 70% of Swedes are members of the Church of Sweden, compared to over 95% in 1970, and 83% in 2000.

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[13]
23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden

My observation is that the idea of being religious is actually foreign to most Swedes.

A large portion of the Christians in Sweden don't believe in God, and in at least some cases this is what their pastors teach. The older people I know were taught some basics of the Bible in public school class when they were kids. But Sweden is very much a post-Christian society (one of the few in the world).

Despite only ~75% saying they believed in 'something', I see a lot of interest in horoscopes/etc/etc.

I think that for many, the idea of believing in God (even in the deistic sense) is looked at as 'uncultured'.

JM

It sounds like Swedes are on the right track.

[Kidlicious]

Yes. There are a few, not sure if more or less than their parents generation (who are 50+). The 50+ people are the only ones which are in general religiously literate.

I talked to one of the students in my group once when we were hanging out in the evening during a conference. He thought that religion led the advanced point where belief in God was no longer necessary (just used in earlier eps'), and that Christianity was an advancement along this path (and that this is what one would learn from the correct interpretation of the Bible).

That's facinating. Is there a name for people who believe that? Or maybe it's just a personal opinion.
As you know maybe, my sister is a New Age Spiritualist. It's like bogus psychology mixed in with whatever religious saying, from any religion, that you feel like believing in. She say's things like "people don't really have limitations, but they just act like they do." Then I'll say, "what are you on, of course people have limitations." But she never offers any explaination. She just says something else stupid.

[Elok]

Only one Orthodox church in Peru. It's an odd little place, with expats from all over coming together to worship in Spanish. Still working on forming a united community, but membership is good.

[Kidlicious]

That's good to hear Elok.

[Elok]

Praying before a meal is a good tradition. I usually forget though.

It's ingrained habit with me, but I still "forget" sometimes, in a different sense. We'll pray, get distracted by something before we start eating, then all sit around asking, "wait, did we pray already?" If we can't recall, we go ahead and pray just to be sure. Mmm, twice-blessed food...

Soren Kierkegaard criticised the Lutheran church in Denmark in the 19th century. I don't know how the Lutherans are doing in Denmark these days. Maybe it's the same as in Sweden. It's a good thing for a church if you offend most of society. Then the church will grow. It's when your church is a state church or acceptable to the masses that your church will die. I know it's counterintuitive, but it's true. Kiekegaard say's it's better than me.

I don't know about being actually offensive, and I haven't read Kierkegaard, but it stands to reason (to me, at least) that a small church will be healthier and faster-growing than a large one. For several reasons:

1. Simple "brand saturation." Only so many members of society are going to be interested in religion. Every society has its spiritually apathetic members, and as the church continues growing there's naturally going to be a smaller number of interested people to convert.
2. Dilution, for lack of a better term. As a church grows, more and more people become attached to it, by one means or another, who really aren't all that interested in it. They stay out of inertia, social pressure, or because they got it from their parents. The large clots of lukewarm believers tend to water down the theology by their very presence, as pastors/ministers/priests/whoever adapt the message to avoid driving off believers who think about football for the whole service anyway. This in turn lowers its appeal to the sincerely religious.
3. Fragmentation. As the church grows, it becomes more diverse in background and opinion, making control difficult and increasing the likelihood of quarrels between not only believers, but even between clergy members of different ideological bent. All highly unappealing.
4. Corruption. As a church becomes increasingly part of the mainstream, it wields greater and greater influence over society, and that's basically the kiss of death for purity. The message becomes compromised by greed and political alliances, when it isn't hijacked entirely by opportunists.

There are probably other factors as well, but those come to mind immediately.

[Kidlicious]

Elok, I think you are right and you would probably agree with SK on many things. Kierkegaard said if everyone is a christian than no one is a christian. Actually he was presenting that as a possibility (hey wasn't above exageration.

In his society literally everyone was baptised as an infant, so no one really chose to be a christian. Now he wasn't a baptist, but he said at least they aknowledged that infants can't be christians. He said though that it's equally ridiculous to say that a teenager can be a christian.

There is of course more to be said about that. But, yes, small or midsize churches have more born again or people who didn't grow up in the church, and when larger denominations start having diminishing membership they don't know how to react so some change their doctrine which is stupid.

[Elok]

Well, we don't have to worry about that last part, at least (though we do infant baptism). There's a bad joke popular in our circles:

Q. How many Orthodox does it take to change a light bulb?
A. (blank stare) ... change?

[Kidlicious]

[Kidlicious]

That said evangelical catholics might be on to something. It's better than having gay priests. (Openly gay I mean)

[Elok]

Evangelical Catholics? What's their deal?

EDIT: Where do they fit on this traditional scale?