Ten Great Things About the Japanese

[BeBMan]

One may say the council is authoritarian, or that several EU mechanims are not democratic, etc.. Others however are, the EP is elected. The EU as a whole is still a union of democratic countries with democratically elected govs. I missed the part where the EU enforced Euro use or the German constitution on the UK or something.

[C0ckney]

what about the european constitution, sorry lisbon treaty.

[BeBMan]

what about the european constitution, sorry lisbon treaty.

Signed by member states - if that means "enforced" it has been done by national govs, incl. the UK's, even if Gordon Brown came too late to the ceremony

[Cort Haus]

Rejected firmly by the electorates of two countries yet sneakily re-introduced under new packaging with no genuinely democratic mandate.

Also the brow-beating of Ireland after they voted the 'wrong' way and were subject to abusive propaganda until they voted the way that was required of them.

[giblets]

The council kind of reminds me of the US government before senators were directly elected by their constituents.

[Kitschum]

Democratically the EU is obviously a loss as it has moved the voters further from the decision-making process. For a mostly working country like mine I'm not sure what we expected to gain by "harmonizing" our laws to dysfunctional kleptocracies like Italy, France and Belgium.

Proponents say we were so dependent on external (economic/regulatory) forces anyway and by getting in we've been getting a say. And I suppose being able to influence the "inevitable" integration process 1 time out of 100 is better than 0, it might have been possible to pick and choose more if we'd stayed out but what's done is done now and can't be undone without a great deal of pain.

[C0ckney]

Rejected firmly by the electorates of two countries yet sneakily re-introduced under new packaging with no genuinely democratic mandate.

Also the brow-beating of Ireland after they voted the 'wrong' way and were subject to abusive propaganda until they voted the way that was required of them.

i agree 100%. i said similar things during debates here when the treaty was yet to be passed. never received a decent answer from the europhiles though...

[BeBMan]

Rejected firmly by the electorates of two countries yet sneakily re-introduced under new packaging with no genuinely democratic mandate.

Yes, but that doesn't affect my point - ignoring their electorate is something people should blame their national gov for.

Also the brow-beating of Ireland after they voted the 'wrong' way and were subject to abusive propaganda until they voted the way that was required of them.

How did "abusive propaganda" forced them Irish to vote one way or the other? Do you vote for party X just because you've seen enough ads from them?

[giblets]

I didn't know the Irish would vote to approve a new constitution just because some douchebags in the media hurt their feelings.

[Cort Haus]

Sorry, chaps - I think you're missing the point here. In what kind of election do the authorities ignore the results when they don't like them and take the issue back to the voters again until they get the result they want?

Which part of the word NO do they not understand?

I'll post more details later.

[C0ckney]

Yes, but that doesn't affect my point - ignoring their electorate is something people should blame their national gov for.

and your mealy mouthed answer does nothing to affect the point that was being made by cort about the anti-democratic nature of the EU.

the fact national governments worked together with the EU to deny people a democratic say doesn't mean that it's ok. the fact that much of european political class wants to drive the EU 'forward' and don't respect the people's opinions, even on the rare occasions they deign to ask them, makes the whole situation re democracy a lot worse, not better.

How did "abusive propaganda" forced them Irish to vote one way or the other? Do you vote for party X just because you've seen enough ads from them?

how can forcing people to vote again (and again) on one issue until they give the 'right' answer be anything but anti-democratic?

and plenty of EU politicians and politicians from other states said a lot of dark things about ireland between the two votes. you know they're only a tiny country, how dare they interfere with our glorious EU project. they're not good europeans, maybe they should leave if they don't like it. lots of words to that effect.

[Cort Haus]

Yes, but that doesn't affect my point - ignoring their electorate is something people should blame their national gov for.

Except that when the national govt is committed to an EU agenda that seeks to ignore or over-ride the electorate at every opportunity, it does tend to reinforce the doubts about the democratic credentials of that EU agenda.

[giblets]

Sorry, chaps - I think you're missing the point here. In what kind of election do the authorities ignore the results when they don't like them and take the issue back to the voters again until they get the result they want?

Which part of the word NO do they not understand?

I'll post more details later.

Elect new authorities then. Maybe the authorities just thought that the voters didn't like certain aspects of the proposal.

[Cort Haus]

Elect new authorities?

The EU Commission, which holds the real power in Europe is unelected. That's the problem.

[giblets]

And who appoints the people on that commission?