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What was that about pulling their own weight?

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  • What was that about pulling their own weight?

    With U.S. in support role, NATO's Libya mission 'going in circles'

    Reporting from Washington and Benghazi, Libya—
    A month ago in Libya, troops loyal to Moammar Kadafi were advancing on opposition-held areas, tens of thousands of civilians feared for their lives, and rebel forces appeared in disarray with little prospect of driving Kadafi from power.

    After four weeks and hundreds of airstrikes by the U.S. and its NATO allies, in many ways little has changed.

    Kadafi's tanks and artillery no longer threaten the de facto rebel capital of Benghazi in eastern Libya, and Kadafi's combat aircraft and helicopter gunships are grounded. But the disorganized rebel forces are still outmatched and outnumbered by Libyan army units, which, along with their leader, show no sign of giving up.

    ...

    Privately, U.S. officials concede that some of their assumptions before they intervened in the Libyan conflict may have been faulty. Among them was the notion that air power alone would degrade Kadafi's military to the point where he would be forced to halt his attacks, and that the U.S. could leave the airstrikes primarily to warplanes from Britain, France and other European countries.

    French President Nicolas Sarkozy and British Prime Minister David Cameron, who led the charge within NATO to launch the air campaign in Libya, argued last week that the alliance needed to step up its attacks to fulfill the United Nations mandate to protect civilians. But winning agreement to escalate the intervention could further divide the already badly split alliance.

    The U.S. military moved into a support role early this month, and Obama has given no indication that he will send U.S. warplanes into combat missions again, let alone reconsider his promise not to use ground troops in Libya.

    His decision to intervene in Libya was not popular at the Pentagon, where Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and top uniformed officers have shown little interest in taking a major role in the conflict while they are fighting the war in Afghanistan. Obama managed to overcome his advisors' objections by promising to keep the U.S. role limited.

    If the alliance's most powerful member isn't willing to escalate, few other members will be eager to do so.


    ...

    Adm. James Stavridis, the U.S. commander of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, has appealed to NATO members for additional attack planes — a request that U.S. officials made clear that other alliance members would have to meet.

    Obama's decision to limit the U.S. military role left NATO without A-10 Thunderbolt II or AC-130 Spectre gunships, U.S. planes that are designed for close air support of ground troops and precise attacks against ground targets.


    The U.S. is keeping A-10s and other strike aircraft on standby in case of an emergency. But bringing the planes back into the fight is not under consideration, a NATO officer said.
    ...

    The Air Force is flying two Predator drones over Libya to help conduct surveillance, but they are unarmed, officials said. The U.S. also is transferring precision-guided bombs to NATO allies flying combat missions, since supplies have begun running short, the NATO officer said.

    The last time the United States undertook an air war largely for humanitarian purposes was during the 1999 NATO campaign in Kosovo, the Serbian province where police and soldiers loyal to Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic were carrying out a ruthless assault on ethnic Albanians.

    Clinton administration officials expected Milosevic to surrender quickly after NATO launched airstrikes, but the bombing campaign lasted 78 days. The Clinton White House promised early on not to send U.S. ground troops into Kosovo, but critics said that appeared to embolden Milosevic to resist.

    Unlike the conflict in Libya, however, U.S. warplanes conducted the vast majority of the airstrikes during the Kosovo campaign and gradually escalated the bombing. U.S. officials even threatened at one point to begin flying attack helicopters, and Milosevic ultimately buckled.

    There has been little sign that NATO is considering — or even capable of — that kind of escalation in Libya as long as the U.S. stays in a supporting role.

    "By the U.S. taking a back-seat role, it has a psychological effect on the mission," said Dan Fata, a former Defense Department official who was responsible for overseeing NATO issues during the George W. Bush administration. "If I'm Kadafi, I'm thinking I can probably wait the Europeans out."


    Can't police their own backyard.
    If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
    ){ :|:& };:

  • #2
    The article is as confused as you are. The vast majority of the countries agreed to enforce a no-fly zone. They are.

    The author of the article, and you, seem to think strafing tanks is part of enforcing a no-fly zone. It is not.

    The real gem of this article is how the US admits it, once again, attacked a country with "bad assumptions". Jesus ****ing Christ. Can't do anything right.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

    Comment


    • #3
      And was the US the one pushing for the no-fly zone? Pretty sure it was Sarkozy and Cameron's baby, and the US just kind of jumped along for the ride. Then suddenly they wanted us to drive, because oh my god, it turns out the Royal Air Force is broke and the French planes suck!

      Your knee-jerk anti-americanism is beyond juvenile, Asher.
      If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
      ){ :|:& };:

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow HC, good job showing respect to America's allies

        Comment


        • #5

          Did you even read your own article?

          Yes, the Euro countries wanted a no-fly zone. This is what they are enforcing.

          It is the US commander that is asking for ground attack/close air support planes from these countries. That clearly has nothing to do with maintaining the no-fly zone, and they act surprised they get no assistance?

          This isn't "knee-jerk anti-americanism", it's intelligence and comprehension of the situation. The US seems to want to invade Libya, but without using their own soldiers so they keep asking other countries to invade Libya...countries that want nothing to do with that.
          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

          Comment


          • #6
            Ground strikes are not an invasion. They don't involve any real risk to Americans. Where would the rest of the world be without us brave Americans?

            Comment


            • #7
              Even the no-fly zone was too much. The U.S. is up to it's neck in **** back home and here we are spending more money to help rebels with strong islamist elements overthrow a secular dictatorship that western allies like Italy previously supported. At the same time politicians are trying to cut everything else out of the budget.

              At this point I suspect that U.S. military actions have no true objectives besides acting as a platform for war profiteering and justifying military keynesianism.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Riesstiu IV View Post
                Even the no-fly zone was too much. The U.S. is up to it's neck in **** back home and here we are spending more money to help rebels with strong islamist elements overthrow a secular dictatorship that western allies like Italy previously supported. At the same time politicians are trying to cut everything else out of the budget.

                At this point I suspect that U.S. military actions have no true objectives besides acting as a platform for war profiteering and justifying military keynesianism.
                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by gribbler View Post
                  Ground strikes are not an invasion. They don't involve any real risk to Americans. Where would the rest of the world be without us brave Americans?
                  Ground strikes are very expensive. They involve real cost to Americans. Where would the rest of the world be without us "in debt up to the eyeballs" Americans paying for stuff?

                  Americans

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Typically disgusting and the reason I cite "damned if you do, damned if you don't" constantly. Just like some ***** with the patented "get away closer".
                    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Braindead View Post
                      Ground strikes are very expensive. They involve real cost to Americans. Where would the rest of the world be without us "in debt up to the eyeballs" Americans paying for stuff?

                      Americans
                      Yeah, and you'll note the Pentagon was never in favor of any of this. Obama's backed down, too, as it mentioned in the article. I think it's worth pointing that France and Britain were the first ones to suggest exceeding the UN resolution and basically have spent the entire time going "America, do your thing".
                      If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                      ){ :|:& };:

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                        Yeah, and you'll note the Pentagon was never in favor of any of this. Obama's backed down, too, as it mentioned in the article. I think it's worth pointing that France and Britain were the first ones to suggest exceeding the UN resolution and basically have spent the entire time going "America, do your thing".
                        WTF do you get this ****? You're starting to edge closer to being in an HCaverse. Or Hauldrenoverse. Or Collideverse. I'm not sure what to call your universe.
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SlowwHand View Post
                          Typically disgusting and the reason I cite "damned if you do, damned if you don't" constantly. Just like some ***** with the patented "get away closer".
                          Which is why we should "don't." Out of the numerous interventions by the U.S. since WWII and Korea, how many have actually done something that has had tangible benefits for the people inhabiting these nations or aided our own national security?

                          The Vietnam war killed millions on the stupid premise of the domino theory; U.S. interventions in Central America propped up "anti-communist" dictators that mired the entire region in decade long civil wars; the Bay of Pigs fiasco guaranteed that Castro would rule Cuba for life; overthrowing Mohammad Mosaddegh and installing the Shah blew up in our face in 1979; aiding Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war blew up in our face in 1991, funding Afghan/Saudi Arabian Mujahid fighters against their war against the Soviet Union blew up in our in 2001. When does this **** end?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Riesstiu
                            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Riesstiu IV View Post
                              Which is why we should "don't."
                              I broadly agree.

                              The "don't" option certainly costs less lives, destruction and resources. If damned either way, the "don't" option looks (relatively) better.

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