Prove God exists!

[giblets]

I've seen many instances of people using the word 'faith' to mean a belief in something without proof or evidence. My apologies if you've never seen anyone use the word that way. Maybe you should talk to more people who use the English language, or consult a dictionary.

[giblets]

Here is a useful link:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

World English Dictionary
faith

—n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
2. a specific system of religious beliefs: the Jewish faith
3. Christianity trust in God and in his actions and promises
4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason
5. complete confidence or trust in a person, remedy, etc
6. any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
7. allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause (esp in the phrases keep faith, break faith)
8. bad faith insincerity or dishonesty
9. good faith honesty or sincerity, as of intention in business (esp in the phrase in good faith)

—interj
10. archaic indeed; really (also in the phrases by my faith, in faith)

[C12: from Anglo-French feid, from Latin fidēs trust, confidence]

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009

[Jon Miller]

So are you claiming that Faith is arbitrary now? Despite the definition that you posted (and I posted) that it is not?

Faith can be arbitrary, yes, but doesn't have to be. Just like any other thought can be arbitrary.

Or do you admit that you were being purposefully obtuse, in your question to MrFun?

JM

[MOBIUS]

In all my years I am still waiting for a religiously afflicted person to explain that God exists in terms other than this nebulous unprovable fuzzy-feeling faith guff...

You religious people can't prove he exists. Fine, he doesn't exist - good enough for me.

See how simple it is to solve this argument...

[DaShi]

Bollocks. If there was a God, don't you think we should have noticed his presence by now? I mean, were are truly ****ing up his creation.

We have. And you can read more about it in the Bible.

[Cort Haus]

It's a shame Elok isn't here so he can't post in this thread to say that he won't be posting in this thread.

[MOBIUS]

Did he leave forever?

[MOBIUS]

We have. And you can read more about it in the Bible.

[Provost Harrison]

leaving forever threads are not what they once were

I see the gay twattishness is weak in you, padowan!

[giblets]

So are you claiming that Faith is arbitrary now? Despite the definition that you posted (and I posted) that it is not?

Faith can be arbitrary, yes, but doesn't have to be. Just like any other thought can be arbitrary.

Or do you admit that you were being purposefully obtuse, in your question to MrFun?

JM

I was asking a question. Sheesh. If it isn't arbitrary, I don't see why people shouldn't be able to offer reasons why their views might be the most likely to be true...

[Jon Miller]

Wouldn't your question then be:

"Is your faith arbitrary?"

Or

"What are the reasons why you have faith?"

Or another question that makes sense?

JM

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I see the gay twattishness is weak in you, padowan!

My feeble skills are no match for the dark side!

[dannubis]

first of all, I was talking about 'god', not about 'God'.
An abstract concept that did not have to be 'God', the personal being with many powers.
It can as well be a natural law.

Then in response to your Pavlov response;
#1 any cause doesn't have to live up to the same rules as it's effects.
Example: a factory that produces cars that are red doesn't have to be red itself.

#2 pointing at a factual true question that remains after answering another question factually right doesn't make the answer to the other question factually wrong.
Example: If you ask me who my father is I can tell you his name and where he lives. If you then ask me what the name is of my father's father, and I would not be able to answer that question, then that doesn't mean that the name and address I gave of my own father is wrong.

So: if our reality needs something bigger outside itself to exist, then that bigger thing doesn't necessarily needs something bigger as well (see #1).
And even if I can't answer the question where this bigger thing outside our reality comes from, then that doesn't mean that our reality itself suddenly doesn't need something bigger for itself to exist anymore (see #2).

So the only thing you can do to counter my reasoning is explaining how our reality actually can exist in itself without something bigger.

So dG < 0 is god. You opened my eyes now. I bet this is what Gibbs was thinking about.

Regarding your rather poorly chosen examples:

Both the car factory and the car follow the same natural laws. Man follows it as well. His alledged "creator" obviously does not have to.

I do not need something bigger to explain my universe. I have my set of laws. Mystical? No. Unfinished ? Yes.

[dannubis]

We have. And you can read more about it in the Bible.

What ? Fire and brimstone on Sodom? A bush *gasp* burning?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

something like 5 step Atheist Anonymous conversion formula goes roughly like this...

step one: you exist, are somewhat intelligent, definitely more so than the chair you are sitting on. You read, learn, have offspring, you are a member of a species which is progressing, getting better at many things, and in general strive to live and learn. Some may dispute this point, but as you look back, historically this seems to be true.

step two: you and your fellow aliens needed about ~4bn years to develop out of gas, therefore the chance for you/somewhat intelligent life to come to existance is greater than 0... as is general consensus.

step three: the universe you exist in is infinite in either space, time or some other means, which may be debatable, but even if not - just looking at the point that even on this earth life of some sort is practically everywhere, ready for further development, from deep undewater vents to ice lakes beneath the antarctic... and universe is as vast as it seems, saying we are "the only ones" is even more dubious than saying that the sun is revolving around the earth as was popular until few hundred years ago... yes, some may want to persist to say "we are the only ones" but hey, if you want to feel special, I bet flat earth society members feel very special too.

step four: give intelligent life to develop long enough and it will be very different from present "state" the mankind is in, perhaps we can think of the difference of us vs the gas and carbon we started from 4bn years ago...

step five: thus there is God

and as an added bonus, people were saying all along that God exists, and even are in this thread, they just failed to agree on the details, clearly there is a way even for Mobius or dannubis to expolore that possiblilty, so guys if you are up for it really - pray or seek some other way and you will find, it's a personal journey, and good luck

This is on the existance, the real question however is: "who is God?"... or what some might say "Where is he?"... that is a different topic often mixed up with the existance thing.