Prove God exists!

[MOBIUS]

Yeah, it's funny how he was all 'hands on' with his creations in the beginning, but now that we can actually tell fact from fiction - he's disappeared!

[dannubis]

From the sane mind at least...

[giblets]

The fact that anything exists is a proof that god exists.
It doesn't exactly tell us what god is though.
But it's illogical to believe that there's nothing outside our reality. That our reality just 'hangs' into nothing (what's that nothing?) or came out of nothing.
Then I'm not just talking about a first cause. Even if we neglect the first cause debate then the question remains: where came the space from in which the first cause could happen.

So there must be something outside of our reality that we can most probably never understand throughout. And if that's a person or just another reality with laws and properties can't be concluded scientifically.

Even if you accept that something must have created the universe, I think 'God' is usually understood to be a personal creator with some sort of relevance to our lives.

[giblets]

Probably the best proof:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_ontological_proof

Note that I don't really think it can be proven in this manner. It is a good argument though.

JM

What makes it a good argument, in your opinion? To me it seems like another way of saying "a god that doesn't exist wouldn't really be a god".

[MrFun]

If you think he/she/it is worth a few minutes of your time.

Faith does not require proof.

[giblets]

Faith does not require proof.

Is faith arbitrary?

[dannubis]

Faith does not require proof.

Neither does idiocy. Stop bothering others with it.

[Jon Miller]

Is faith arbitrary?

No

And your response is illogical.

JM

[giblets]

No

And your response is illogical.

JM

I wouldn't have said something illogical if I knew what was wrong with it, so maybe it would help if you explained.

[Robert]

Funny how you always get to the same argument with "believers".

Q: Where did space first come from ?
A: From God of course.
Q: And where did God come from ?
A: That is a question you don't need asking.

first of all, I was talking about 'god', not about 'God'.
An abstract concept that did not have to be 'God', the personal being with many powers.
It can as well be a natural law.

Then in response to your Pavlov response;
#1 any cause doesn't have to live up to the same rules as it's effects.
Example: a factory that produces cars that are red doesn't have to be red itself.

#2 pointing at a factual true question that remains after answering another question factually right doesn't make the answer to the other question factually wrong.
Example: If you ask me who my father is I can tell you his name and where he lives. If you then ask me what the name is of my father's father, and I would not be able to answer that question, then that doesn't mean that the name and address I gave of my own father is wrong.

So: if our reality needs something bigger outside itself to exist, then that bigger thing doesn't necessarily needs something bigger as well (see #1).
And even if I can't answer the question where this bigger thing outside our reality comes from, then that doesn't mean that our reality itself suddenly doesn't need something bigger for itself to exist anymore (see #2).

So the only thing you can do to counter my reasoning is explaining how our reality actually can exist in itself without something bigger.

[Robert]

Even if you accept that something must have created the universe, I think 'God' is usually understood to be a personal creator with some sort of relevance to our lives.

True.
But to ever be even able to talk about proving God, we need to be able to proof that there's at least 'something'.
I doubt that it's possible to proof that there's a God (capitalized) but I'm fairly sure that we can't exist without at least something.

[Robert]

Yeah, it's funny how he was all 'hands on' with his creations in the beginning, but now that we can actually tell fact from fiction - he's disappeared!

That's explained in the Bible.
Not to mention that I would consider a God who created a perpetual universe that doesn't need his maintenance a much better God then one that needs to be hands on with it all the time.

[Robert]

Faith does not require proof.

Faith is based on some kind of proof.
I only have faith in my wife because I have experienced her, talked with her and know her at least a bit.
Now would I not compare my wife to God, but the faith I have in my wife is the same type of faith I have in God, just of a different magnitude.

[Jon Miller]

I wouldn't have said something illogical if I knew what was wrong with it, so maybe it would help if you explained.

The statement "Faith does not require proof" does not imply or suggest "Faith does not require evidence". Note that this also is entirely different than the question "Is Faith abritrary?"

The question "Is Faith arbitrary" has nothing to do with MrFun's comment, and in addition shows that you have no understanding of "Faith". I am not even talking about the religious kind.

I am unsure whether you are a non-native english speaker, purposefully obtuse, or incapable of rational responses. After your response to MrFun, I am inclined to think that you are just not capable of responding rationally.

To help you, if you happen to be a non-native english speaker, here is some uses of the word Faith so that you can understand what the word means:

His supporters have accepted his claims with blind faith.
Our faith in the government has been badly shaken by the recent scandals.
Lending him the money to start his own business was an act of faith.
It requires a giant leap of faith for us to believe that she is telling the truth.
Nothing is more important to her than her faith in God.
She says that her faith has given her the courage to deal with this tragedy.
Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced. —Joe Klein, Time, 17 May 2004
Nick wiped at the moustache of sweat droplets that was as much a part of his face as his eyes and nose and gave a shrug that indicated a certain lack of faith in our judgment. —Tom Perrotta, Joe College, 2000
But while no one with a grain of sense trusted Miss Stephanie, Jem and I had considerable faith in Miss Maudie. She had never told on us, had never played cat-and-mouse with us, she was not at all interested in our private lives. She was our friend. —Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird, 1960

As you can see, from these examples alone, that your responses on the subject of Faith are nonsensical.

Please feel free to learn more about english or rational discourse, so that you can engage in it with the adults on this board and other places.

JM

[Jon Miller]

If you are a non-native english speaker than I apologize for my harshness.

Here is a useful link:

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/faith

Here is what it says:
Meaning:
1 [noncount] : strong belief or trust in someone or something ▪ His supporters have accepted his claims with blind/unquestioning faith. ▪ Our faith in the government has been badly shaken by the recent scandals. ▪ His parents have always had faith in him. = His parents have never lost faith in him. [=his parents have always believed that he is a person who deserves to be trusted and who will succeed] ▪ I have no faith in politicians. = I put/have little faith in politicians. [=I do not trust politicians] ▪ Lending him the money to start his own business was an act of faith. ▪ It requires a giant leap of faith for us to believe that she is telling the truth. —see also bad faith, good faith
2 a [noncount] : belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs ▪ religious faith ▪ Nothing is more important to her than her faith in God. ▪ She says that her faith has given her the courage to deal with this tragedy. ▪ He says he has found faith. [=he has begun to believe in God or has developed strong religious beliefs] b [count] : a system of religious beliefs : religion ▪ people of all faiths ▪ the Christian/Jewish/Muslim faith
accept/take (something) on faith : to accept (something) as true without proof or evidence that it is true ▪ I'm not willing to take her statements on faith. ▪ I'll accept it on faith that he knows the truth.
an article of faith : something that is believed without being questioned or doubted ▪ For many it is an article of faith that the economy will begin to improve soon.
break faith with : to stop supporting or being loyal to (someone) : to betray (someone) ▪ He has accused the government of breaking faith with its supporters.
keep faith with : to continue supporting or being loyal to (someone) ▪ He has kept faith with his old political allies.
keep the faith : to continue to believe in, trust, or support someone or something when it is difficult to do so ▪ The team has been playing poorly, but its devoted fans have kept the faith. [=they have continued to support the team]

JM