Programming Vs Databases paradox

[VetLegion]

Programming is hard. Some qualifiers apply, of course. Not every little script that can be considered programming is hard. But generally, sooner or later you create a problem in your code, and then it gets interesting, to say the least. Not many people solve such problems in reasonable amount of time. Perhaps 10% of the population can.

Databases on the other hand... SQL is easy. You could train a monkey to do it. I've seen economists pick it up in less than a year. It can get a bit more complex if you write procedures, but SQL is itself a declarative language and the most complex things in it... are not that complex.

Here is the paradox: SQL handlers are paid better than programmers! At least here. Not only that, programmers are paid less than just about everybody.

I can't figure it out. I think it's down to two things:

- a glut in "programmers" created by 15+ years of brainwashing college bound kids that computers are "in"
- lack of understanding of programmers' productivity on behalf of bosses (they think having two $5000 programmers is better than having one $15000 programmer... this is never true)

What do you think?

[Asher]

Do DBAs make more than programmers, or software engineers/architects/developers?

There's a massive difference in the salary between all of them.

FWIW, I don't think they're all that distinguishable for any competent developer. I wrote hardcore SQL scripts while at Lehman -- queries that'd take 18 hours to return on DB clusters (and that's AFTER optimization), and stored procs that were thousands of lines...

[Asher]

From some quick googling, in the USA DBAs make comparable salaries to "software engineers".

[VetLegion]

DBAs make more but that is fine with me... very hard to find a good DBA.

But "SQL handlers" who do nothing more than SQL earn a premium over
programmers who write code.

Since most programmers can learn SQL if they don't already know it,
I'd expect the market to correct the imbalance. But it has not happened
in the three years I'm aware of the phenomenon.

[Asher]

It sounds like your region is the exception, not the norm.

I know of virtually no SQL writers. I know tons of software engineers that write a lot of SQL, though.

[VetLegion]

The typical job is a data-warehouse guy, filling the databases. Or a report
guy, creating SQL that feeds data into some presentation layer.

I did both those roles at some point. Virtually no coding involved. I trained
people to use SQL to do their own reports. Those non-technical people are
better paid than programmers, the unsung heroes of our age.

[loinburger]

Every place I've worked has handed off reports to an entry-level programmer. I did reports between the year that I graduated high school and the year that I graduated college - ever since then I haven't touched them because there's been somebody more junior doing them. Needless to say the reports person doesn't get paid much.

The two types of people I've encountered who have had the DBA title have been the 4-year degree types and the 2-year degree or non-degree types. The former type of DBA have salaries comparable to the programmers, and when the DBA/programmer relationship is non-contentious they're trying to achieve the same goal of optimizing data access (e.g. the database people and software engineers will work together to figure out table layouts and indexes etc); when the relationship is contentious then both sides put up fences and try to protect their budgets. The latter type of so-called DBA make less money than the programmers and often have a chip on their shoulders about it; they spend their time playing solitaire or minesweeper and being useless.

[Kuciwalker]

I don't understand this distinction between "writing SQL" and "programming".

[Asher]

I don't understand this distinction between "writing SQL" and "programming".

It depends on what you're doing. If you're writing stored procs or very advanced queries, it's a form of programming. If you're using it with simplistic queries, it's more akin to command-line manipulation...

[MRT144]

Every place I've worked has handed off reports to an entry-level programmer. I did reports between the year that I graduated high school and the year that I graduated college - ever since then I haven't touched them because there's been somebody more junior doing them. Needless to say the reports person doesn't get paid much.

The two types of people I've encountered who have had the DBA title have been the 4-year degree types and the 2-year degree or non-degree types. The former type of DBA have salaries comparable to the programmers, and when the DBA/programmer relationship is non-contentious they're trying to achieve the same goal of optimizing data access (e.g. the database people and software engineers will work together to figure out table layouts and indexes etc); when the relationship is contentious then both sides put up fences and try to protect their budgets. The latter type of so-called DBA make less money than the programmers and often have a chip on their shoulders about it; they spend their time playing solitaire or minesweeper and being useless.

This is the case at my office.

[Cort Haus]

I don't understand this distinction between "writing SQL" and "programming".

I agree. I've spent much of the last 15 years writing reasonably lengthy and sophisticated SQL scripts for data conversion/manipulation/migration/interface scenarios and in many cases being reasonably well paid for it. This is basically writing a 'program' to take one datset and transform it into another.

I'm sure it's easier, though, than mastering OO dev languages and a billion APIs and many jobs requiring this that I've seen have paid less than I got for doing the former. So the OP has a point.

[Kuciwalker]

I agree. I've spent much of the last 15 years writing reasonably lengthy and sophisticated SQL scripts for data conversion/manipulation/migration/interface scenarios and in many cases being reasonably well paid for it. This is basically writing a 'program' to take one datset and transform it into another.

Yes, at my office we frequently use Access for the same purpose.

(I'm one of the few people that doesn't use the awful query builder )