Public Education: Vital for modern society or a scam?

[giblets]

There is data supporting KrazyHorse's assertion but their methodology of using state-wide data and comparing states always concerned me.

I decided to use data from greatschools.org to determine the relationship between school funding and performance in Philadelphia and the surrounding townships. I compared expenditures per student and Pennsylvania System of State Assessments (PSSA) scores for the Philadelphia school district and the bordering and 'two-over' townships in Montgomery County (ie- the townships that border Philadelphia and the townships that border those townships that border Philadelphia [there was no data for one township, Bryn Athyn]). As for the PSSA test:



I used 11th grade science results as a proxy for school performance. Unfortunately, this will likely overstate the performance of districts with low graduation rates such as Philadelphia since 11th grade results do not account for those who did not finish their junior years of high school.

The scores are the percentage of students who scored at or above proficient.

Obviously, this is not a comprehensive examination since it's only comparing two variables and only 11 school districts but it's interesting nonetheless since it shows a very strong positive relationship between expenditures per student and % of students scoring at or above proficient at science.

The problem (and I'm guessing you've already thought of this) is that schools with more funding generally have students with a better home environment, and other advantages. Can't really draw very many conclusions from that graph.

[Al B. Sure!]

Oh god, I don't want to search. Just point me to your data. I want to see the numbers and calculations.

District Spending per student 11th grade science
Philly 8985 16%
Lower Merion 18791 67%
Abington 12868 50%
Cheltenham 15698 39%
Colonial 15330 56%
Upper Moreland 11301 42%
Jenkintown 17107 69%
Lower Moreland 12810 67%
Upper Dublin 11728 53%
Upper Merion 14990 53%
Springfield 11715 38%

[Al B. Sure!]

The problem (and I'm guessing you've already thought of this) is that schools with more funding generally have students with a better home environment, and other advantages. Can't really draw very many conclusions from that graph.

So wouldn't that mean that the students with the disadvantages should be given extra attention? You know, things like better teachers, smaller class sizes, etc. which can be brought about by increased funding?


Those that need it less receive more funding. Those that need it more, receive less?

[giblets]

So wouldn't that mean that the students with the disadvantages should be given extra attention? You know, things like better teachers, smaller class sizes, etc. which can be brought about by increased funding?


Those that need it less receive more funding. Those that need it more, receive less?

I'm not arguing with your viewpoint, I just don't think the graph is very useful.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not arguing with your viewpoint, I just don't think the graph is very useful.

I think it provides enough of a counter to give pause to the immediate acceptance of KH's claims, at least. Like I said, only two variables and only 11 districts. I'm but one man and greatschools.org is annoying in their format.

Regardless, the presence of other relevant variables doesn't hinder my overall position. The claim that other variables besides school funding encourage higher scores only means to me that the students from disadvantaged social backgrounds require additional attention to perform at the levels of their privileged peers and this additional attention includes things like higher quality teachers, smaller class sizes, better materials, etc. that could be provided through higher funding.

[Kuciwalker]

So wouldn't that mean that the students with the disadvantages should be given extra attention? You know, things like better teachers, smaller class sizes, etc. which can be brought about by increased funding?

You haven't shown that more funding improves outcomes yet.

[Kuciwalker]

I think it provides enough of a counter to give pause to the immediate acceptance of KH's claims, at least.

No. EXPENDITURES PER STUDENT IS NOT EXOGENOUS.

[Al B. Sure!]

You haven't shown that more funding improves outcomes yet.

Do better teachers improve outcomes?
Do smaller class sizes improve outcomes?
Does having a textbook per student that you can take home as opposed to Philly's current situation improve outcomes?

[Kuciwalker]

I don't know, why don't you show us some data?

[Kuciwalker]

btw, in the 19th century would you have believed that a sick person should see a doctor?

[Al B. Sure!]

Obviously, it is difficult to measure 'better' teachers but intuitively, it is obvious that better teachers would teach better and students would perform better. We already explored how urban school districts are not attractive to teachers for obvious reasons so urban school districts would have to compensate better teachers more relative to more attractive school districts. This comes conclusively down to money.

Smaller class sizes improving outcomes was demonstrated by Project STAR (Student/Teacher Achievement Ratio) in Tennessee. Again, this comes down to money.

Having a textbook per student and a textbook that you can take home to read and study from is obviously related to performance. Again, money.

This is the problem. Where you come from, you get to take laptops home. Where I come from, kids can't take textbooks home.

http://articles.philly.com/2008-11-20/news/25256753_1_teacher-vacancies-textbooks-book-supply

Sayre High freshman Tykia Hicks says she has no textbooks to take home, and that troubles Arlene Ackerman, Philadelphia's schools chief.

At a School Reform Commission meeting last night, Hicks asked officials to help.

She said the books she does have are marked up, and because each class has only one set, she can't take the texts home. That makes homework and projects tough. Sayre's library, shuttered for two years, was recently reopened, but its book supply is poor, she said.

"We respectfully demand our books and materials," said Hicks.

Ackerman acknowledged that a tight budget limited what the district could spend on books and said that in some cases, a single classroom set was all schools could afford. The goal will be to work toward buying books for all students to take home.

[Kuciwalker]

Obviously, it is difficult to measure 'better' teachers but intuitively, it is obvious that better teachers would teach better

And yet you haven't shown that more money hires better teachers, or that better teachers are even identifiable.

[Kuciwalker]

Having a textbook per student and a textbook that you can take home to read and study from is obviously related to performance.

"Having a doctor diagnose and treat your illness is obviously going to help."

[Kuciwalker]

Smaller class sizes improving outcomes was demonstrated by Project STAR (Student/Teacher Achievement Ratio) in Tennessee.

Based on wiki, this is a massive mis- and over-representation of STAR's result.

[Al B. Sure!]

I don't think you appreciate the gravity of the situation in urban school districts. Budget constraints are forcing school closings, teacher lay-offs, closing of school libraries (by the way, public libraries are being closed and having reduced hours in Philadelphia as well), inadequate supplies of textbooks...

It's very simple.

You have students with decades-old textbooks which have been through dozens of hands and have pages missing, marks all over, etc. Shortage of textbooks forces the school to not permit students to take the books home where they can read, study, use them for homework, etc.

It's very simple that there is a problem with funding.


That article and Tykia Hicks comments are very helpful for understanding the problem. Sayre High School had their school library shuttered for 2 years. There are not enough textbooks to take home.

Is it any wonder that Sayre High is performing as the following:





PSSA scores. The blue is Sayre, the grey is Pennsylvania overall.


Tell me the situation does not set up students at Sayre to fail.