Gunman Assassinates U.S. Congresswoman

[MOBIUS]

I didn't twist anything. The author clearly has an axe to grind regarding immigration - for example, he uses the term "anti-immigrant" to refer to people and groups that oppose illegal immigration.

Well, at least I've forced you to retract your previous assertion. This one I can defend quite easily because it has clearly provoked your latent racist tendencies...

As you and I well know, the anti-immigration movement in AZ is not merely against illegal immigration, but the immigration of certain ethnicities (specifically Latinos here). Hence the raft of extremely well publicised laws and acts passed of a racist and discriminatory nature (which you appear to be supporting) to Latinos as a whole in AZ - not just the illegals...

Cali, we are all well versed in your latent racism. Try as you might, you can't hide it even if you're less overt about it than Hera or the Russian posters...

[MrFun]

Poor Canada

Take the Canadian example you pointed out. Now for United States, multiply by - I don't know - one hundred?

[DinoDoc]

Poor DinoDoc

Yes, half baked sociology being passed off as rational discourse by you is disheartening.

[Caligastia]

Well, at least I've forced you to retract your previous assertion.

I haven't retracted anything, so I don't know what you're on about.

As you and I well know, the anti-immigration movement in AZ is not merely against illegal immigration, but the immigration of certain ethnicities (specifically Latinos here). Hence the raft of extremely well publicised laws and acts passed of a racist and discriminatory nature (which you appear to be supporting) to Latinos as a whole in AZ - not just the illegals...

Please give me an example of a law or act that specifically targets Latinos.

Cali, we are all well versed in your latent racism. Try as you might, you can't hide it even if you're less overt about it than Hera or the Russian posters...

When are you going to realize that I don't give a hoot whether you think I'm racist or not? I can only conclude that you must get a kick out of making the accusation.

[Asher]

I have a feeling Canada has plenty of religious nuts in the woodwork, if a visit to a baseball game in Toronto had anything to go by...

to be fair, Blue Jays fans are simply not sane.

[Wezil]

I'm not sure I'd equate traffic accidents with handgun murder.

The point (for Aeson) was that just because some nutter managed to get a gun doesn't mean we should stop trying to prevent it.

Just because some idiot drives 100km over the speed limit doesn't mean speed limits are useless.



edit - remove double neg

[Asher]

[Asher]

Been reading a ton of profiles on Arizona today, about their recent political history. It's officially the scariest US state now, far worse than Texas.

I forgot that this was the same state where some kid brought an AK-47 to an Obama rally after listening to his Reverend (a tea party activist...) give a speech called "Why I Hate Barrack Obama".

****ing crazies there, and you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed handgun with an extended magazine... And soon you can even bring them to schools.

Just, what the ****, America? What the ****.

[Asher]

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/independents-day.html

Independents Day

by digby

So it turns out that the shooter was a registered Independent. Gloria Borger seemed to swallow her tongue when she abruptly realized that her entire worldview had been shattered. In the Village, you see, "Independents" are the practical, moderate centrists who just want everyone to get along. It's unthinkable that someone who calls himself independent might not be right in the middle between the two extremes. How ever will we figure out what the polls mean from now on?

Borger and Blitzer chatted amiably about how well the congress has done in the wake of the tragedy and Borger then came up with a 2004 "target" map from the Democrats and said it shows that both sides are equally wrong and we shouldn't look in the rear view mirror:

I think what we see here Wolf is that nobody has the moral high ground here. These are the words we use in elections, ok? And there is nobody who's got the corner on "I'm holier than thou and I've never used this kind of language." What we can say though Wolf is that the test of leadership will be somebody who can talk to voters and calm down the rhetoric rather than ratchet it up.

Blitzer replied, "Thanks. Good, good, good point there Gloria, as usual."

Yes, that was a brilliant insight and she was very proud of it. And she's half right. Except for the carnage over the past two years, nobody has the moral high ground. From Dave Neiwert:

-- July 2008: A gunman named Jim David Adkisson, agitated at how "liberals" are "destroying America," walks into a Unitarian Church and opens fire, killing two churchgoers and wounding four others.

-- October 2008: Two neo-Nazis are arrested in Tennessee in a plot to murder dozens of African-Americans, culminating in the assassination of President Obama.

-- December 2008: A pair of "Patriot" movement radicals -- the father-son team of Bruce and Joshua Turnidge, who wanted "to attack the political infrastructure" -- threaten a bank in Woodburn, Oregon, with a bomb in the hopes of extorting money that would end their financial difficulties, for which they blamed the government. Instead, the bomb goes off and kills two police officers. The men eventually are convicted and sentenced to death for the crime.

-- December 2008: In Belfast, Maine, police discover the makings of a nuclear "dirty bomb" in the basement of a white supremacist shot dead by his wife. The man, who was independently wealthy, reportedly was agitated about the election of President Obama and was crafting a plan to set off the bomb.

-- January 2009: A white supremacist named Keith Luke embarks on a killing rampage in Brockton, Mass., raping and wounding a black woman and killing her sister, then killing a homeless man before being captured by police as he is en route to a Jewish community center.

-- February 2009: A Marine named Kody Brittingham is arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate President Obama. Brittingham also collected white-supremacist material.

-- April 2009: A white supremacist named Richard Poplawski opens fire on three Pittsburgh police officers who come to his house on a domestic-violence call and kills all three, because he believed President Obama intended to take away the guns of white citizens like himself. Poplawski is currently awaiting trial.

-- April 2009: Another gunman in Okaloosa County, Florida, similarly fearful of Obama's purported gun-grabbing plans, kills two deputies when they come to arrest him in a domestic-violence matter, then is killed himself in a shootout with police.

-- May 2009: A "sovereign citizen" named Scott Roeder walks into a church in Wichita, Kansas, and assassinates abortion provider Dr. George Tiller.

-- June 2009: A Holocaust denier and right-wing tax protester named James Von Brunn opens fire at the Holocaust Museum, killing a security guard.

-- February 2010: An angry tax protester named Joseph Ray Stack flies an airplane into the building housing IRS offices in Austin, Texas. (Media are reluctant to label this one "domestic terrorism" too.)

-- March 2010: Seven militiamen from the Hutaree Militia in Michigan and Ohio are arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate local police officers with the intent of sparking a new civil war.

-- March 2010: An anti-government extremist named John Patrick Bedell walks into the Pentagon and opens fire, wounding two officers before he is himself shot dead.

-- May 2010: A "sovereign citizen" from Georgia is arrested in Tennessee and charged with plotting the violent takeover of a local county courthouse.

-- May 2010: A still-unidentified white man walks into a Jacksonville, Fla., mosque and sets it afire, simultaneously setting off a pipe bomb.

-- May 2010: Two "sovereign citizens" named Jerry and Joe Kane gun down two police officers who pull them over for a traffic violation, and then wound two more officers in a shootout in which both of them are eventually killed.

-- July 2010: An agitated right-winger and convict named Byron Williams loads up on weapons and drives to the Bay Area intent on attacking the offices of the Tides Foundation and the ACLU, but is intercepted by state patrolmen and engages them in a shootout and armed standoff in which two officers and Williams are wounded.

-- September 2010: A Concord, N.C., man is arrested and charged with plotting to blow up a North Carolina abortion clinic. The man, 26-year--old Justin Carl Moose, referred to himself as the "Christian counterpart to (Osama) bin Laden” in a taped undercover meeting with a federal informant.

[Hauldren Collider]

I understand: "criminal element will always be able to get guns."

I don't understand: "so we should make it as easy as possible for them! Those poor working criminals don't have time to waste sourcing hardware!"

why not: "criminal element will always be able to get guns, but it'd be good if we made it AS HARD AS POSSIBLE FOR THEM."

The saying goes, locks are for honest people. Criminals just break windows.

Organized crime and gangs would not be significantly hampered by making it difficult to purchase weapons legally, or at least the evidence suggests this to be the case. The other kind of criminal, crazy wacko murderer like this guy, is extremely rare. There's maybe one or two people like this per year out of a country of 300 million people. That's a drop in the bucket in terms of preventable death.

Muggings are a lot less likely when many people are armed--you wouldn't mug someone if you thought they had a gun. It doesn't even matter if most people don't have guns, if enough do, you'd never want to take the risk. Although I think in general concealed carry is worthless to most Americans, they live in safe areas with low crime and are more at risk of an emotional moment leading to an armed confrontation.

[Asher]

Muggings are not a big problem here, yet virtually no one is armed with hand guns.

I think Americans have deluded themselves. Look around at the rest of the developed world. No gun cultures, tight national gun control, far lower murder rates.

America is doing a lot of things very wrong, the numbers are very clear. Whether it's gun control, widespread poverty, lack of accessible education, etc or a mix of them all...the numbers are crazy.

It's incredibly sad that this man has easier access to semi-automatics with extended magazines than mental health professionals.

[Solomwi]

Asher, that's simply not true. Mental health professionals can get semi-automatics with extended magazines, too.

[Asher]

[N35t0r]

The saying goes, locks are for honest people. Criminals just break windows.

Organized crime and gangs would not be significantly hampered by making it difficult to purchase weapons legally, or at least the evidence suggests this to be the case. The other kind of criminal, crazy wacko murderer like this guy, is extremely rare. There's maybe one or two people like this per year out of a country of 300 million people. That's a drop in the bucket in terms of preventable death.

Yet the US's firearm homicide rate is among the highest globally. Coincidence?

Also, while it's likely they'd still be able to get their hands on guns, I'd be willing to bet that a much stricter control / outright ban would make it, in the long run, harder for them to do so, and thus end up with overall less criminals with guns.

Muggings are a lot less likely when many people are armed--you wouldn't mug someone if you thought they had a gun.

I'm going to have to ask for something to back this up... Remember, criminals have guns as well, and you either carry a concealed gun (in which case you still get mugged, and if both of you have guns, there's a high chance either or both of you get to use it (and guess who is less likely to hesitate, and more likely to be ready for the chance of you pulling a gun?)) or you carry it openly, in which case they'll try and catch you by surprise (which they'll do in any case anyway), leave you alone, or just kill you (depending on where you are / what time it is / the expected gain from robbing you, of course). They are criminals after all.

[Asher]

It's not just mass shooter crazies who get their hands on guns easily. Domestic violence murders using guns are far, far higher in the US than Canada -- want to guess why? And domestic violence using knives or other weapons are far, far more survivable.

Similarly, guns make suicide a much easier thing which means suicidal people are much more likely to successfully take their own lives when they own a gun.