Incidentally, **** you, Jenny McCarthy. That is all.

[Asher]

No, something reasonable "other than that" is to just agree that there being no reliable evidence of a causal connection between thiomersal and any significant medical problems, there is no reason to phase out thiomersal in regions where doing so would increase costs. Spencer didn't seem to go an inch beyond that common sense and I don't think anyone here (save for perhaps a zakuHL or two) would either.

The problem is saying it IS possible when there's no indication that anything of the sort is possible is enough for many people to fear it. Like nye, apparently.

It's like saying your daughter's teacher is possibly a child rapist. You don't go saying **** like that unless you have any reason to be it's at all realistically possible.

[Hauldren Collider]

Has Oprah apologized for being such a terrible person?

[SpencerH]

excerpted from p9-10 of the executive summary

From Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism (2004)
Immunization Safety Review Committee, Board on Health Promotion and Disease Prevention, INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES, THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES PRESS, Washington, D.C. www.nap.edu

The committee notes several factors that limit acceptance at this time of the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism. The evidence offered for the hypothesis includes data from in vitro experimental systems, analogies between rodent behavior, and human behavior and clinical observations that are at least as well explained as being comorbid disease expressions than as causal factors. That is, it is possible that some people with autism, perhaps even a subgroup that could eventually be identified by genetic markers, have abnormal immune reactions and abnormal mercury metabolism, but that vaccination of these individuals does not cause these abnormalities or autism itself. However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. However, these experiments do not provide evidence of a relationship between vaccines or thimerosal and autism.

In the absence of experimental or human evidence that vaccination (either the MMR vaccine or the preservative thimerosal) affects metabolic, developmental, immune, or other physiological or molecular mechanisms that are causally related to the development of autism, the committee concludes that the hypotheses generated to date are theoretical only.

In summary, the national academy rejected the association between vaccination and autism due to lack of epidemiological evidence at that time (in 2004) but clearly did not reject the potential for an effect based on existing in vitro studies and even suggested that further study was warranted.

[MikeH]

2004 is ancient history. They did a massive study in Denmark (I think) where they surveyed everyone, including a massive community of people who refused all modern medicine, and found that the incidences of autism increased in both groups at the same rate. So something else is causing autism rises and people STILL banging on about vaccinations even though it's been comprehensively debunked and the snake oil merchant who questioned it in the first place has been confirmed as a fraud! Depressing.

http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004407.html

No credible evidence of an involvement of MMR with either autism or Crohn's disease was found.

And things have gone even further since then.

http://www.badscience.net/2009/02/pay-to-play/#more-931

[SpencerH]

Adding more epidemioglical data that doesnt address the more complex questions that I briefly mentioned and that are noted by the National Academy does not add anything to the debate except to help confirm the existing conclusions. It doesnt refute the more complex hypotheses since they remain untested by epidemiological studies . Keep in mind that the existing studies are looking for a causal relationship between thimerosal and autism, nothing more.

IMO, "Dr. Wakefield" is a snake oil salesman. I only glanced at it briefly but as I recall, he proposed that MMR causes autism because it is a multivalent vaccine using antigens from 3 different organisms that triggers an immune response to "brain antigens". There is evidence that (some) people with autism have "non-normal" immune systems and responses to non-self antigens can provoke immune responses to self-antigens but the MMR hypothesis, while not impossible, is definitely pushing the premise IMO. We are constantly responding to multivalent antigens from different sources and would be a stupendously remarkable coincidence if the few antigens selected for the MMR vaccine triggered such a response.

[Asher]

Now can everyone see Spencer is one of the crazies?

[DaShi]

Yes, I'm not sure what his argument was, but it seemed to be bordering on the arguments fanatics use to prove that God could exist.

[Lorizael]

Er, I'm not sure that SpencerH is actually being all that unreasonable here. He's just saying that there's more science to be done, which is not exactly a terrible thing for a scientist to say.

[Asher]

There's always more science to be done.

Sane people know this and don't need to give ammunition to crazies.

[DaShi]

I can claim that spontaneous generation exists because not enough science has been done to disprove it.

[Lorizael]

He agrees that the science done so far demonstrates no causal link between vaccines and autism, thinks children should get their vaccines, and thinks Wakefield is a snake oil salemen. I'm not sure how he's helping the crazies.

[giblets]

Even if the vaccines did increase the chances of autism, how would that be worse than the kid dying from some disease?

[DaShi]

He's claiming that there is a possibility of a causal relationship without stating how incredibly small that possibility is.

[MikeH]

Er, I'm not sure that SpencerH is actually being all that unreasonable here. He's just saying that there's more science to be done, which is not exactly a terrible thing for a scientist to say.

There is, but as there's been a huge amount of anti-vaccination scares and we've already done a shed load of research into disproving the unfounded fears of scaremongering pressure groups maybe we're better off spending our money on something else since this vaccine that is taken by millions a year, for many years, doesn't seem to cause any issues.

Funny how anti-vax always bang on about how dangerous vaccinations could be, but never mention how dangerous the diseases are! Measles can cause deafness, and kills 1/2500 to 1/5000 kids who get it. Rubella can cause miscarriages, deafness, blindness and retardedness and there are all kinds of other complications.

Even if the vaccine did cause a tiny incidence of autism, which it doesn't, it would still be better than a potential 1/5000 risk of death?

[MikeH]

Wow many cross posts there. gribbler.