Religion: Real or Fake

[rah]

Faith by definition is usually blind. My faith that god doesn't exist is blind faith. Please feel free to provide supporting evidence that God exists. I have no supporting evidence that he doesn't exist.

[rah]

My faith that the Bears will win this weekend is based on supporting evidence. (and I my faith may be placed wrong) The bears have a better record then the seahawks. The experts that make money on it have made them a ten point favorite. The bears that were injured when they lost the first time are now healthy. I consider those things supporting evidence. But part of my faith is not based on anything rational, and that part is the blind part.
I don't consider the bible supporting evidence that God exists. I don't consider that a lot of people also believe supporting evidence. What supporting evidence is there. (our existence doesn't cut it for me either)

[Imran Siddiqui]

C.S. Lewis wrote a whole book indicating what he thought as evidence for God (it's called "Mere Christianity").

[Jon Miller]

Faith by definition is usually blind. My faith that god doesn't exist is blind faith. Please feel free to provide supporting evidence that God exists. I have no supporting evidence that he doesn't exist.

I have a lot of evidence that He exists.

For example. I normally am very nervous on presentations. In fact, most presentations I have done things like stutter and even forget what University I was from! (I am from the University of, the University of, the University of.... pause, look at my slide, the University of Maryland).

In the fall of 2009 I completed thesis, I had a new job waiting in Sweden. In fact, I was late, and so after I completed my thesis, I started work on learning about IceCube. I also needed to move. As is always the case, moving took a lot longer than I thought it would, and suddenly it was Monday and my Defense was on Thursday (I think, I might have the days off by 1 or 2). I had talked about my thesis work before (as mentioned above), and so had many slides already prepared. I went to work. I met with my advisor once more before the Defense (it was two days away) the next day. My presentation (the presentation, not the slides) was terrible. Utterly terrible. And generally, I do much much much better in private practices (with my advisor, supervisor, other students/postdocs, etc) than I did for the presentation. I just got really really nervous on the presentation.

And I prayed. And prayed. And went back to work.

The next day, my presentation was looking much better. I practiced for a friend, it was my 'usual'. I had a few slides to fix. I fixed them, I prayed. I was very very nervous.

The next day, I went in. When I stood up in front, I felt calm. I gave a great presentation, and answered all the questions given to me smoothly and correctly (on a couple of items where I wasn't the expert, I had to give the explanation I knew and then say that it was just correct to first order, which I did). It was the smoothest defense of any of my friends. Afterwards (and it was shorter than many), they complimented me. I could tell that some were pleasantly surprised.

Note normally, on my presentations in the past (and in the future ), I would sometimes have problems with the simplest of questions (and wouldn't be asked any difficult ones).

Now this is just minor. And just one small story to tell, not sure why I told that one and not one from last year.

Now I know that this isn't evidence for everyone. But it is evidence for me. And is the least of the evidence for me.

But the biggest evidence is how I changed from an angry, antisocial, maybe even sociopathic individual into a kind, caring, friendly, gentle individual.

For Christians, faith is usually not blind (or it shouldn't be).

If you are a Christian, and you don't see evidence of God working in your life, then something is wrong and you need to re-examine your Christianity.

JM

[Lorizael]

But the biggest evidence is how I changed from an angry, antisocial, maybe even sociopathic individual into a kind, caring, friendly, gentle individual.

For me, this is not evidence of the existence of a deity but evidence that our brains react to stimuli.

[Kidlicious]

For Christians, faith is usually not blind (or it shouldn't be).

If you are a Christian, and you don't see evidence of God working in your life, then something is wrong and you need to re-examine your Christianity.

Sounds almost like prosperity gospel. God simply can't be understood according to human logic. That should be the first thing that you understand.

edit: It's not that I don't believe that God gives a helping hand in the details of our lives on occassion, but he shouldn't be understood simply as one doing that.

[giblets]

No, we don't need to talk about (probability that if a deity creates life, it only does it on one planet). For one, a deity (in many belief systems) creates the universe just for humans. Additionally, this isn't something that is likely to be probabilistic.

By the way, the fact that you were considering it probabilistic is baffling to me. The only way I can imagine it being probabilistic is if it is a gambler god or a god that just does 'things' randomly.

JM

I'm finding it confusing that you consider the universe working by principles that lead to life existing on one planet or several to be probabilistic. The universe could be set up so that formation of life is extremely difficult, or it could be set up so that it's easy, and we can't determine how it is set up without having a good understanding of how life forms. The less we know about the level of difficulty, the less the size of the universe tells us.

[rah]

Jon,
If god is the tool you use to learn how to focus or become a better person, that's fine, but I still don't accept that as supporting evidence but just another example of faith.

Kid,
your "can't be understood according to human logic" is just another aspect of faith

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sounds almost like prosperity gospel.

How? He's not saying that if you believe you get good fortune. He's saying that sometimes you can feel the presence of the Lord working through you - and it doesn't have to be when it benefits you; it can be when you are being a giving person.

[Kidlicious]

Kid,
your "can't be understood according to human logic" is just another aspect of faith

Of course. I just don't understand what your point is about me believing on faith.

[Jon Miller]

I'm finding it confusing that you consider the universe working by principles that lead to life existing on one planet or several to be probabilistic. The universe could be set up so that formation of life is extremely difficult, or it could be set up so that it's easy, and we can't determine how it is set up without having a good understanding of how life forms. The less we know about the level of difficulty, the less the size of the universe tells us.

If our understanding of science is correct, it is probabilistic.

Jonathan

[Jon Miller]

How? He's not saying that if you believe you get good fortune. He's saying that sometimes you can feel the presence of the Lord working through you - and it doesn't have to be when it benefits you; it can be when you are being a giving person.

I actually primarily mean change to being more Christ like.

It is known that Christians are not always showered with worldly blessings.

Jonathan

[Kidlicious]

How? He's not saying that if you believe you get good fortune. He's saying that sometimes you can feel the presence of the Lord working through you - and it doesn't have to be when it benefits you; it can be when you are being a giving person.

Having faith isn't just doing what we do to get a good feeling. Faith goes beyond that. It's natural to believe in God when we get a good feeling from it, when we avoid human suffering and christian suffering. What's hard is going beyong that.

How natural is it for us to believe that God wants us to be free from human and christian suffering, but how hard is it to have faith? Let's assume that God doesn't want Jon to be a scientist, or get married, or have any children. Let's say God wants him to go live as a hermit in the desert and eat only locusts and wild honey, wear only camel hair for clothing and offend the highest members of society until they throw him into prison and eventually cut off his head. Only faith will make him do that.

[Jon Miller]

Jon,
If god is the tool you use to learn how to focus or become a better person, that's fine, but I still don't accept that as supporting evidence but just another example of faith.

Kid,
your "can't be understood according to human logic" is just another aspect of faith

In science, which we both agree is a very non-faith based enterprise, if I believe in a theory and do things (experiments) which should have some certain result in that theory, and those results happen, then I take that as evidence that the theory is true. This is a poorly explained description of what it is to do science.

Being a Christian, and living a Christian life, something similar is happening with Christianity. The results, similar to science, are evidences in favor of Christianity.

This was very crude, and rough, but it is definitely evidence, not faith.

Jon

[Jon Miller]

Having faith isn't just doing what we do to get a good feeling. Faith goes beyond that. It's natural to believe in God when we get a good feeling from it, when we avoid human suffering and christian suffering. What's hard is going beyong that.

How natural is it for us to believe that God wants us to be free from human and christian suffering, but how hard is it to have faith? Let's assume that God doesn't want Jon to be a scientist, or get married, or have any children. Let's say God wants him to go live as a hermit in the desert and eat only locusts and wild honey, wear only camel hair for clothing and offend the highest members of society until they throw him into prison and eventually cut off his head. Only faith will make him do that.

Whether I am following God by going and being a hermit in the desert or by being a scientist, I should continually be growing and transforming to be more Christlike. This is the crucial evidence.

Jonathan