Tomorrow is another chance - a job interview

[Pekka]

So they called me two days ago, "Can you come for an interview soon?". I said yes. The position is good in terms that it's OK pay. It's a government job, but it can compete with the lower level private sector pay scale when it comes to that particular position. Another good thing would be that I'd have no subordinates. The bad side is that I'd have like 3 or 4 bosses.

Then again, the job for me would be something that I do now with my own company, except that I'd have to serve 4-5 clients at the same time for the salary I'd get for just working for one.

Yes, I figure I was head hunted for it. I figure I do it for a year or two, finally get some euros in my pocket for my hard and systematic work, finally get those pay days as well, live a bit easier for a while and lower the risk factor. Then if it doesn't seem to work out, it's OK, I still have a functioning business that makes profit. Not like I'd give it up for no reason, I'm still the majority share holder anyway. I'd probably hire the number 2 to do the actual service side for the clients, and give him good money for it.

What do you think? Is it doable? I think I should at least try. It's not like I'm guaranteed to get the job. I know it's a short list. But I know all the candidate are pretty much top notch, because they'd rather not hire at all if there weren't qualified people. Tips for the interview? I'm thinking for a new approach. I just don't care for it too much. Maybe it's time I don't "beg for it" and be all yes sir and no sir but more "OK so what do you have for me in exchange for my expertise, why should I take this job?"... just no stress at all. I'm not even worried. I can still refuse if they even offer it to me.

I have learned this: hard work doesn't always pay off, you have to do the right things and then work hard on those right things. The market works both ways in terms of scarcity. Your value is also high and what-they-want as long as it is fairly scarce. In human relationships, it's kind of like playing hard to get, it will only get those buggers more horny. The more you say no, the more they want to hump you.

[dannubis]

You go man

Good luck !

[Pekka]

rah, you always give good advice when it comes to these things. I have a question for you. This is a government security job that comes with some actual influence. My bad sides are that I have opinions and I don't like to be told how things are unless they are reasonable or argued well. That is, if someone says "because I say so", I have a real problem with it. I'm experienced in my field, probably the most experienced in the house should I get in, so, they probably have a way of doing things. I could most likely make it better, more efficient and cost effective should I be given the chance to do it. But people don't like that. People don't like change. Bosses don't like subordinates who are difficult like I sometimes can be, asking questions, asking debates or not simply taking it as told. And if I think I'm absolutely right and I can easily prove it, then I'm not going to go away and simply accept and submit. I guess that's why I have a company myself.

So anyway, it's not a good idea to answer the question of "what are the bad things about you?" saying "I'm experienced, strongly opinionated and you have to debate me if you don't accept my stance." with a follow up to good things "I accept other opinions and ways of doing things if they are well grounded." Also, I tend to ramble, go on about things. They ask me a question and I answer something completely else, and tell them few stories as well. That's not a good thing.

So obviously they are going to ask this. What should I say?
Reality: not good subordinate if they want to follow old habits that I find old and ancient. Opinionated. Refuses to submit without reasoning.
Fiction, the perfect answer?

Oh, also, add manipulative

[Asher]

government!!!!!!

Do government jobs pay well there? Maybe Europe is different.

I briefly entertained the idea of working for a government "security" organization here in Canuckistan, but their pay grades were laughable compared to what I could get in the private sector.

[Pekka]

Asher, you wish.. it's not a good pay, but it's still about double that I make now. You know how hard our government makes it for a small business to survive? They'd probably make it harder but they officially don't have those things that can suck your blood.

I could get about... 30 % more in the private sector. But I can't work for my own competition. It's actually against our mutual agreement (there are other owners and co-founders). Also, that would make no sense. Gov job has benefits of influence, and the possibility of still being in the business for myself. I figure I can get that missing 30 % from my own company should I have time and energy for it.

But it's the same in here, private pays a lot more.

edit: 30 % for the same position that is. For security field, of course, a lot more can be made in the private sector. Double, maybe triple.

[Riesstiu IV]

If they don't hire, then you know what must follow... face destroying.

[C0ckney]

i have little useful advice to give, so i'll just say good luck pekka.

[rah]

Yes, Pekka, I also think you've graduated to a new attitude for interviews. I think you can move on to, "I'm the expert, you'll be paying me a good buck, so I'll assume you'll listen to what I have to say"
This can be done without sounding like a cocky ASS. You just have to make it sound natural and common place. You don't raise your tone when you state what you know, it's 'more matter of fact'.
Your new answer to what is your weakness has now become, "I don't tolerate fools that well" said without hesitation, in a normal tone and WITH A STRAIGHT FACE. This will separate you from others that are good in the field. Now this might turn off some prospective employers, but if it does, they're probably not the type of boss you really need at this point. Let them know that if they need something done, that a short scribble on a piece of scrap paper is all you need for it to evolve into a completed plan they can be confident in. No hand holding required. You're the expert and will get it done.

[DanS]

Man, this would be a drag. The pay is regular, but you can't find more opposite types of jobs than entrepreneur and government worker.

[Asher]

Speaking of job interviews, yesterday I interviewed a guy with a PhD in philosophy from UofT, where Agathon taught.

He was interviewing for an entry-level software developer position.

The interview did not go well.

[N35t0r]

PhD in philosophy and looking for a job as a software developer?

[Asher]

Not as uncommon as you may think.

I've worked with a couple guys with philosophy degrees who became developers too (one a bachelors, the other a masters).

A lot of philosophers like philosophy because they like to "solve problems", and when they realize their degree is useless, they move on to more practical ways to solve problems.

[Pekka]

Yes, Pekka, I also think you've graduated to a new attitude for interviews. I think you can move on to, "I'm the expert, you'll be paying me a good buck, so I'll assume you'll listen to what I have to say"
This can be done without sounding like a cocky ASS. You just have to make it sound natural and common place. You don't raise your tone when you state what you know, it's 'more matter of fact'.
Your new answer to what is your weakness has now become, "I don't tolerate fools that well" said without hesitation, in a normal tone and WITH A STRAIGHT FACE. This will separate you from others that are good in the field. Now this might turn off some prospective employers, but if it does, they're probably not the type of boss you really need at this point. Let them know that if they need something done, that a short scribble on a piece of scrap paper is all you need for it to evolve into a completed plan they can be confident in. No hand holding required. You're the expert and will get it done.

OK, I think this is the way to go. Previously I've been more desperate to get the job. Now I don't need it, but it would be nice. Also I'm more used to being listened to (in the field, otherwise I'm an idiot) and people ask for advice so.. I've grown to it, sort of. I think I was a better catch maybe two or three years ago, I just didn't know it. But I know what you mean by not being an ass. I've been humiliated enough times to learn that even though sometimes you think you're objectively right, it doesn't necessarily be so, and sometimes it is secondary anyway.

My older mentor has shown me a way to go. He has patience so he hasn't dumped me just yet. The biggest lessons he has taught are ones that I know are true but have not yet the time or experience to truly understand it or execute it. Lessons such as making other people look good, understanding the endgame better. Having patience. Knowing the value of match making and how word to mouth works when you are networked enough. Knowing that even though some people are *******s, and sometimes they start competing against you, you don't have to position yourself against them. Always look for the win-win. It's not always obvious what it is, but there are options. Sometimes letting go is the best thing. Good things can't happen by enforcing people if you have the chance. I mean these are all obvious statements, but to live it and make them happen is another thing. It takes years of experience, sometimes maybe decades. It takes a certain type of humble personality that never stops seeking other ways. This type never thinks they're ultimate experts, but are patient enough to listen to some crazy ramblings from someone who hasn't proven themselves, but they sort of seem interesting because they absolutely can't happen in real world but somehow they still believe it's possible and in fact those things will happen.

My ego problems are different than could be interpreted here. I'm not so much full of myself as I realize that I feel pressure when I think I have to prove myself. I'm sure I will, again, be the least experienced in terms of years in the industry, I'll be the guy without certificates, I'll be the one with least life experience, I have lots of disadvantages. I never was the one who got the best grades, not even close. If we put everything on the paper, I'd never win. But we both know it's not about that. However, if an expert of my field is sitting in front of me, they will recognize what I do and appreciate it. It always happens when you meet with someone in your field like that, you just know. So I hope the interviewer is an expert of my field and recognizes me as an up and coming young pro who can do some good stuff given the opportunity and look beyond my weak points, which are plenty (I just gave few here)....

... Regardless, I'll be seeing what they have instead of begging for what I can give them. This is my logical reasoning: if they buy my services business to business, they'll pay almost a year's worth of my salary right there. That equals about 15 on-site days (maximum). For the same price, they'll get it for 365 days. Surely it's a bargain

[Pekka]

dans, I would, if I worked for my competition. But then I'd be scoped as a consultant. I don't want to be a consultant. They already have a way of doing things, the teach and preach the same things. I don't find it satisfying, even though the pay would be much better. I'd rather make less money, which I do. If all else fails, then I go to work for my competition

I think our company does provide better services. Yes, we have less of a profit margin with our services and sometimes we just over-engineer in ways that are idiotic. But we also do strongly think we make better security than our competition. Better in the very specific domain of course. We are not as good in the business though, but in security it is common that inferior products/services win, because it is not often a priority nor is it understood well enough as an investment but rather a must-have (and so invest as little as you can). We are dominated by our competition in terms of lots of things, but we are still new and all our references are valuable, that is, our clients are security intensive. You know many of them

[Pekka]

Well, it went pretty well. They asked me only few questions. The rest was just talking, of course about the field itself, but more in relaxed mode.

They said right from the beginning that the process is strict, they will interview everyone they selected now and then few people again for the second time and they also said they will be tested. So about the only question they asked was "so why do you want to work for us?"

Then about 40 minutes of free talk. It was a nice atmosphere but I don't know if they will call me for the second round. They said they did like my level of expertise and that they need it. But it's another question if they really want it from me or someone else (who are all hacks, of course!).