Dale 2.0 (Or the Revenge of Robert?)

[OneFootInTheGrave]

for us in Europe I believe it is really late, so I will let this argument go for another better time... but just in short Cyber mg: ... but OK...

in other news... how it all started ... as we will later find out, noone knew we are going after Iraq in 2001, Blair, Bush, or the Russians... but Faded Glory knew. You heard it first here... glory days

http://settler4.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34805

[Elok]

When SH was first removed, majority of the Muslims were happy about that. It was only when the Americans weren't able to stop the civil war and thousands of civilians being murdered, that the opinion changed. So that again is a part of the poor execution problem I already posted.

You're talking about a country where one minority had been oppressing the majority for decades, while another was glowering across the border at Turkey. It's not a matter of execution, it was only Saddam's iron fist that was containing the situation at all. The only way to prevent violence would be a hand as heavy as Saddam's, if not heavier since we were foreigners.

AQ is a pure organization. Selling dope is a way to achieve their goals. It's not against their principals, not to mention that muslims from the AQ background believe that any mean is allowed if it serves the greater goal.
If AQ was after power, then they would not have done 9/11 since that was a suicidal attack, both for the 'pilots' and for the organization. (And the knew it! they had already anticipated the invasion of Afghanistan by the USA).

I don't know what you mean by "pure organization," but AQ seems to have executed 9/11 as a means to increased prestige. They're professional cockroaches, they can scuttle away under a rock no matter where we stomp. Certainly they wouldn't say "oh, well, the infidels have left Saudi Arabia, so let's call it a day and disband." The movement is self-sustaining now, regardless of their initial casus belli. Typical young Al Qaeda recruits aren't even terribly religious, they join the fight for the same reason urban youth join gangs: they're young, disaffected with life in general, have nothing to do and are looking for a place to belong.

And Iran only b/c a serious problem (of SH size) after Ahmadinejad became president in 2005.
Ahmadinejad is the one who has the strong Mahdi believe.

Get real. Ahmadinejad is a stupid pawn put in place by the clerics to give the rabble the illusion of democracy, and to make loud speeches to draw attention away from their own actions. Iran was and would remain a threat, and a legitimate reason to keep troops in place.

I would support splitting Iraq up in 3 parts.
Of course that'll not be accepted by the Turks. But it's not as if under SH the Sunnis/Shiites/Kurds issue wasn't a problem. Saddam used WMD against the Kurds, and they could only survive b/c of the no fly zones, which were already for about 11 years controlled by American armies. (not by Russians, Chinese or German armies!!) (no, not by French armies either, of course).

The situation, while unpleasant, was contained and sustainable.

The Shiite/Shuni/Kurd problem would erupt one day or another day.
Now we had a chance to let it erupt at least a bit controlled. But that's where we failed.

Again, no, there was no way to contain or control that level of resentment. And I'm afraid it's going to take another dictator to hold the country together at this point. The current government is a study in dysfunction.

The current situation in Iraq would have come anyway. After SH'd death or after the death of his sons.
You can't blame that totally on the USA.

Were any of those three terminally ill at the time? Was Iraq's government terminally unstable? Every gov't on Earth is bound to collapse someday. That means nothing if the collapse is nowhere near imminent.

[giblets]

Iraq is no Saudi Arabia. Baghdad is no Mecca/Medina.
For muslim like OBL 'infidel' armies in SA is like muslim armies on the temple mount of Jerusalem for Jews.

Israel was never a part of Al Qa'idas message (untill later, for PR reasons).
Al Qa'ida was fighting the Saudi government exactly for the reasons I specified. You can look it up.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
"In the face of a seemingly massive Iraqi military presence, Saudi Arabia's own forces were well armed but far outnumbered. Bin Laden offered the services of his mujahideen to King Fahd to protect Saudi Arabia from the Iraqi army. The Saudi monarch refused bin Laden's offer, opting instead to allow U.S. and allied forces to deploy troops into Saudi territory.[75]

The deployment angered Bin Laden, as he believed the presence of foreign troops in the "land of the two mosques" (Mecca and Medina) profaned sacred soil. After speaking publicly against the Saudi government for harboring American troops, he was banished and forced to live in exile in Sudan."

and

"In 1996, al-Qaeda announced its jihad to expel foreign troops and interests from what they considered Islamic lands. Bin Laden issued a fatwa (binding religious edict),[94] which amounted to a public declaration of war against the U.S. and its allies, and began to refocus al-Qaeda's resources on large-scale, propagandist strikes. In June 1996, the Khobar Towers bombing took place in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, attributed by some to al-Qaeda, killing 19 and wounding 372."

Of course the American presence in Iraq was also not very going to help, but it was at least a temporarily problem, compared to the status quo with SH.
With the removal of the SH government, there was sight on removing the troops from the Middle EAst all together (if executed well.)

In November 1989, Ali Mohamed, a former special forces Sergeant stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, left military service and moved to California. He traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan and became "deeply involved with bin Laden's plans."[72]

A year later, on November 8, 1990, the FBI raided the New Jersey home of Ali Mohammed's associate El Sayyid Nosair, discovering a great deal of evidence of terrorist plots, including plans to blow up New York City skyscrapers.

It looks like they were planning attacks on the US before the Gulf War even happened.

[MOBIUS]

Maybe Plompie will learn to STFU when he's on a hiding to nothing...?

[Provost Harrison]

Yeah, same for me AAHZ.

I left £1,000,000 in one of the threads here and it was removed! I demand it back! If you don't return it I WILL COMPLAIN TO WIKILEAKS!

[Robert]

Thanks for your donation, Provost Harrison!

[Nikolai]

Don't critisize the mighty Plomp, AAHtchoooooZ. The Plomp is what the Plomp does. You should clearly be perma-banned for this. In fact, that is an awesome idea.

[ZEE]

.

[Lorizael]

Says the guy with a tiny green face and a giant neck.

[Nikolai]

eat another bratwurst, lardo, and invest in some acne cream.

I'm just impersonating you.

[MOBIUS]

Can't we just stick to the topic? Namely that Plompie embarrassing himself WRT to the illegal invasion of Iraq and how it's not so bad compared to Afghanistan...

[Nikolai]

...and here I thought the topic was AAHZ embarrassing himself, again?

[Robert]

Can't we just stick to the topic? Namely that Plompie embarrassing himself WRT to the illegal invasion of Iraq and how it's not so bad compared to Afghanistan...

How can it be embarrassing to have a solid consistent opinion based on independent thinking?
I think it's more embarrassing to have an inconsistent opinion that's only based on group-thinking and sophism.

[MOBIUS]

Exactly. Which is why you are continuing to embarrass yourself with your populist (well, it was populist until it was exposed as a sham!) and inconsistent stance...

But hey, keep digging your hole!

[SlowwHand]

You're the one that says two different things in one sentence, about things that are none of your business.