Turns Out Mr. Wikileaks is Mentally Unstable

[MOBIUS]

As for being bullied into it by teachers, I can say that there are several teachers I have had that got upset at kids not saying the pledge, and they all eventually got themselves in trouble with higher-ups. It's very easy to complain to the administration about them.

So there is bullying at school for not saying the pledge - and by the teachers themselves!!!

[Jon Miller]

Well, your school IS the only one in the country, so your experience is exactly replicated across the country.

Pretty sure his schools is the best in the country and a very unique experience.

JM

[MOBIUS]

I heard it was the best school in the entire universe.

[Jon Miller]

Might be, but one on Virgo Six gives it a run for the money.

JM

[Elok]

Yes, it does actually, you yourself even said that McD's jingle would have increased sales. Why do you think companies spend billions of $$$ on advertising otherwise...!?

Because it comes with a catchy jingle and appeals to the appetite (notwithstanding that McDonald's food is nasty, or was years ago when I last bothered with it). The pledge is a singularly boring and abstracted lump of phrases. I, at least, learned it when I was too young to understand what "pledging," "allegiance," or "republic" meant--certainly the meaning of the whole thing was beyond me--and just spat it out without minding what it meant. And continued doing so for the rest of my school years. Even after I understood what it meant, the pledge was so worked into memory that it never came out for analysis when I recited it.

Reciting a religiously inspired pledge every single day you are at school is therefore bound to have a brainwashing influence on the more susceptible ones. I would say that it goes without saying, but that's the whole point - it has to be said to work!

Try an experiment: have somebody assign you an obscure medieval oath of fealty from Welsh history to say every morning and make you say it, every day for a month. At the end of the month, I bet you will have no feeling but mild irritation towards Gwaffyd ap Myngwllr, or whoever the hell you were swearing loyalty to. Nor will anybody else who tries the experiment, unless they liked ol' Gwaffyd from the get-go or had somebody harangue them about him in the meantime. Which is the case in America; what indoctrination does occur takes place in Civics or American History classes, or outside the classroom.

[MikeH]

So if it's pointless why have it?

Everyone from every country outside the US who's expressed an opinion so far thinks it's creepy and weird. Most of the US posters who've expressed a view have either agreed that it's creepy and weird or tried to claim it is meaningless. So what's the point of having it?

It's eerily similar to the genital mutilation/circumcision arguments. People who've had it can't see why it seems barbarous to those who haven't.

[MOBIUS]

Circumcision Thread!

[Elok]

Oh, we could certainly stand to get rid of it, but crying "brainwashing" is absurd. It certainly bears no resemblance to genital mutilation, which renders women incapable of sexual pleasure for life if it doesn't kill them. All the pledge causes is whiny, drawn-out philosophical arguments between hippie kids in conservative areas and their straight-edge, hard-ass teachers.

But I don't think we'll get rid of it any time soon, just because too many people have a sentimental attachment to it, or think refusing to say it is evidence of commie-ness, or whatever. The idea will probably die out with the change of generations. In the meantime, since I can't see any real harm done by having the stupid thing around, I don't have any problem with it staying.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well they got rid of the arm raising bit after WWII... still serves the same purpose though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_salute

[Elok]

Yes, and we also pledge allegiance to the "Republic"...as in "Union of Soviet Socialist." OMG!

[OneFootInTheGrave]

you are not socialists, that one is a certainty... cult of state being reinforced though

[Hauldren Collider]

Well, your school IS the only one in the country, so your experience is exactly replicated across the country.

It's true throughout FCPS, and probably all of Virginia, and it was true for the school I attended in Tennessee.

Naturally there are going to be times when teachers don't follow the rules but what the **** do you want? There's 300 million people in the US, do you think they're all angels?

And regardless, Americans (I generalize because I'm confident that this is almost universally true) fully understand that there is a difference between the government and the administration. They are not pledging allegiance to Obama. They're not pledging allegiance to Congress or Pelosi or what have you. It's not fascist; when I say the pledge every morning I'm pledging allegiance to an idea, not a person or a party.

One last point for the "cult of state" idiots--we aren't the country with a monarch that is a "symbol of the state and the unity of the people" etc.

[Elok]

At my HS, at least, you weren't required to say it, only to stand up for it. One student I know refused to even stand up. Our ninth-grade homeroom teacher griped at him, but AFAIK nothing happened. I never saw nor heard of any of my fellow-students harass the kid. For my part, I wanted to roll my eyes at him; he was a real fight-the-power type, always looking for something to protest or rebel or something. Real nice, but annoyingly self-righteous sometimes. He probably went to some college near Portland where the complete works of Naomi Klein are on every class's syllabus.

[Elok]

And regardless, Americans (I generalize because I'm confident that this is almost universally true) fully understand that there is a difference between the government and the administration. They are not pledging allegiance to Obama. They're not pledging allegiance to Congress or Pelosi or what have you. It's not fascist; when I say the pledge every morning I'm pledging allegiance to an idea, not a person or a party.

It basically means, "I promise not to commit treason." If it actually meant loyalty to the present administration, half the population would refuse to say it at any given time.

[Hauldren Collider]

At my HS, at least, you weren't required to say it, only to stand up for it. One student I know refused to even stand up. Our ninth-grade homeroom teacher griped at him, but AFAIK nothing happened. I never saw nor heard of any of my fellow-students harass the kid. For my part, I wanted to roll my eyes at him; he was a real fight-the-power type, always looking for something to protest or rebel or something. Real nice, but annoyingly self-righteous sometimes. He probably went to some college near Portland where the complete works of Naomi Klein are on every class's syllabus.

QFT, this is exactly how it plays out here. The teacher usually gets annoyed but I've rarely seen a teacher get upset because of the disrespect. The teacher's usually pissed because the kid is so hopelessly contrarian about everything just for the sake of it.