I'm not sure one should dismiss God anymore

[Elok]

Okay, but how many of those suicidal tendencies are caused by shame over Sarah Palin?

[Meticulous Man]

And the darkness. The eternaaaaall darkkkknessssss consuuuuumessss meee

[curtis290]

The suicide rate in Scandinavia isn't that different from Canada and US.

Sweden: 13.2
Canada: 11.6
Norway: 11.4
US: 11.1
Denmark: 10.6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

When the allegedly high suicide rate in Scandinavia has been brought up I've heard it explained as an artifact of how the statistics are recorded. Suicide is considered to be shameful in some cultures, so in some countries suicides aren't/weren't recorded correctly. I can't vouch for that but it seems plausible.

Edit: And the darkness. The eternaaaaall darkkkknessssss consuuuuumessss meee

Oh sh but look at this. It seems Alaska's suicide rate is kind of high after all! Alaskans kill themselves at double the rate of Swedes.


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_7584821

Point taken. Why then are people committing suicides in these places despite their comfortable lives? They didn't before. I bet if we look at suicide statistics, we'll find that they aren't recorded before a certain (relatively recent) date, because suicide is a relatively new phenomenon. Of course it's always been around, but never has it been this popular.

So tell me again, why do so many people in the OECD countries suffer from depression and commit suicide? Since they have more political freedoms and a much higher quality of life than their predecessors, why have these things become commonplace? Suicides used to be extremely isolated incidents, yet now they happen all of the time. According to liberal theory and its notions of "progress" we should be jumping up and down for joy, shouldn't we? Since we have many more consumer goods available to us than our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, and their ancestors? Since we have more political freedoms? Seems like a blatant contradiction to me.

It's because they've lost God, community, and values, and only have the market and the drive to make more money. It is just a poor way to live, no matter the freedoms it offers or the material comforts it provides.

[giblets]

Point taken. Why then are people committing suicides in these places despite their comfortable lives? They didn't before. I bet if we look at suicide statistics, we'll find that they aren't recorded before a certain (relatively recent) date, because suicide is a relatively new phenomenon. Of course it's always been around, but never has it been this popular.

So, I guess since infant mortality statistics have only existed for a relatively short period, infant mortality is a relatively new phenomenon?

[Elok]

Yeah, people used to have more class and "die of melancholy."

[curtis290]

So, I guess since infant mortality statistics have only existed for a relatively short period, infant mortality is a relatively new phenomenon?

Yeah, people used to have more class and "die of melancholy."

They didn't take suicide statistics because it wasn't common. It's a poor analogy. We obviously know that infant mortality rates were high before modern medicine. And we know that suicide was much rarer then than it was now.

But none of you have really answered my argument. If we have all of these great individual rights and so many material comforts, more than ever before in history, how could suicide and depression be so prevalent? Shouldn't we all be jumping for joy that our lives are so great?

And how many religious people commit suicide? How many suffer from depression? Countless psychological studies have shown that religious people tend to have a greater sense of well-being than the non-religious. And why do people continue to become religious in the face of modernization (contrary to what most thought several decades ago)? It's because the modern, liberal lifestyle lacks meaning (maximize your wealth/happiness until you die), and religion continues to serve a vital role in providing people with a sense of meaning, morality, and community in their lives. These are basic, fundamental human needs, common sense and philosophy show that this is obvious. Yet these things aren't easily quantified or empirically proven and they don't fit into the liberal conception of society based on contract-making individuals, maximizing their wealth/happiness, so liberals just don't get it.

[giblets]

They didn't take suicide statistics because it wasn't common. It's a poor analogy. We obviously know that infant mortality rates were high before modern medicine. And we know that suicide was much rarer then than it was now.

But none of you have really answered my argument. If we have all of these great individual rights and so many material comforts, more than ever before in history, how could suicide and depression be so prevalent? Shouldn't we all be jumping for joy that our lives are so great?

And how many religious people commit suicide? How many suffer from depression? Countless psychological studies have shown that religious people tend to have a greater sense of well-being than the non-religious. And why do people continue to become religious in the face of modernization (contrary to what most thought several decades ago)? It's because the modern, liberal lifestyle lacks meaning (maximize your wealth/happiness until you die), and religion continues to serve a vital role in providing people with a sense of meaning, morality, and community in their lives. These are basic, fundamental human needs, common sense and philosophy show that this is obvious. Yet these things aren't easily quantified or empirically proven and they don't fit into the liberal conception of society based on contract-making individuals, maximizing their wealth/happiness, so liberals just don't get it.

The only evidence you've offered for your claim that "suicide was much rarer" is the lack of statistics back then. That's a silly argument, and I gave an example to show that. And if you want to blame lack of religion, you should provide some actual evidence that, say, an atheist 30 year old employed married heterosexual white male living with children in an urban area in the United States is more likely to commit suicide than a religious 30 year old employed married heterosexual white male living with children in an urban area in the United States with the same income level is.

And hell, if people feel better if they're religious, and a large number of people choose to be religious if they have the right to make a choice, how is that not just another example of individuals maximizing their wealth/happiness? And why should people who like religion have a problem with a society based on contract-making individuals maximizing their happiness, as long as they're free to practice their religion of choice?

[Kidlicious]

No. Humility has nothing to do with fear.

Ah the old deny simple truth trick. Nice play.

[Dauphin]

They didn't take suicide statistics because it wasn't common. It's a poor analogy. We obviously know that infant mortality rates were high before modern medicine. And we know that suicide was much rarer then than it was now.

Yeah, so uncommon that it was commonly made illegal throughout most of recorded history.

[Kidlicious]

I always took fear to mean the entirely sensible fear one feels in the face of something enormous, powerful and incomprehensible. Even if you don't think it will hurt you in any way, it's natural to feel fear when confronting the unfamiliar and uncontrollable.

Sure, I agree that's part of it. Having 'fear of God' means something more than that in the Bible though. For example, do you remember the parable of the persistant widow in Luke? God say's the judge didn't have any fear of God. He means that the judge was prideful.

[Kidlicious]

Not life altering consequences. What parent would watch their kid die after getting hit by a car because they were playing in the street? Even though the kid was suffering the consequences of not listening to his parents, the parents still love their child and would certainly call an ambulance.

Let me ask you this. If your child was an ax-murderer would you let him go on killing people or would you report him to the police? Just because you love your child doesn't mean that you are going to let them get away with murder, not if you are a just person anyway. God is just.

Now as far as hell goes. I don't know if there is such a thing as it is described in the Bible. I don't read the Bible as literally as some. I think the Bible helps us live and gives us hope and a purpose. Some of it isn't literally true. That said, you should live your life as though hell is real.

[Kidlicious]

Faith isn't evidence of anything, unless you also mean that Santa Claus exists because kids believe he does.

Human beings are wired to seek a purpose for thier lives, to wonder how they got here. Your comparing that to parents telling their children lies? Children have no natural inclination to believe in Santa Claus, not even the most imaginative children.

[Meticulous Man]

And hell, if people feel better if they're religious, and a large number of people choose to be religious if they have the right to make a choice, how is that not just another example of individuals maximizing their wealth/happiness? And why should people who like religion have a problem with a society based on contract-making individuals maximizing their happiness, as long as they're free to practice their religion of choice?

That makes it look like people decide to "consume" a religion after a cost/benefit analysis, but does a genuinely religious person think "I have such and such religion because it makes me happy"? This is why I'm personally not so enthusiastic about atheism, it's not just a critique of the Church but also a part of a world-view where it's impossible to find meaning or to really be social because it's just about you consuming experiences.