The Shrinking Middle Class in America

[giblets]

Yeah but one could argue that to artificially correct this disparity through income re-distribution would have prevented the mutual increase in living standards.

One could argue that the economy will grow just fine if the wealthy are taxed more than they are now.

[Al B. Sure!]

Anyone else find people like this very xenophobic or even racist? This idea that American workers are somehow more important than Cambodian workers... Really, MrFun, I'm shocked. I would've thought you were more 'brotherhood of man' than this.

[Kuciwalker]

The income disparity stats they put up are completely meaningless because they almost never include the cost of health insurance.

[Al B. Sure!]

One could argue that the economy will grow just fine if the wealthy are taxed more than they are now.

possible. Regardless, it's not all clear cut as Mr. Fun wants to make it seem. Just because the disparity is greater than in the past doesn't mean that's necessarily a bad thing or that people are worse off than any other alternatives.

[Kuciwalker]

Also, oh noes if the American less-absurdly-affluent weren't getting EVEN RICHER as fast as the American more-absurdly-affluent. Over the same time period that they've allegedly stagnated, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD have been raised out of complete destitution and given some measure of basic comfort and security, largely due to the policies that are supposedly destroying our middle class.

[Al B. Sure!]

Also, oh noes if the American less-absurdly-affluent weren't getting EVEN RICHER as fast as the American more-absurdly-affluent. Over the same time period that they've allegedly stagnated, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD have been raised out of complete destitution and given some measure of basic comfort and security, largely due to the policies that are supposedly destroying our middle class.

MrFun is a racist

You ever notice that the Klan is all pro-protectionism?

[Al B. Sure!]

http://www.kkk.bz/program.htm

Party Platform...

Repeal the NAFTA and GATT treaties.

These "laws" given to us by the Democrats and Republicans is damaging to the American worker and will eventually put millions upon millions into desperate poverty.

This is from Imperial Klans of America:

Do away with free trade that harms the American worker, and employ a policy of protectionism. We need to put America first, before any other country. Most countries already do this, we don't.

Now, not saying that a broken clock can't be right twice a day or that those who agree with some things of the Klan are racist... just something to consider.

Also,

Cut off trade with countries that refuse to establish strict environmental laws.

We should promote a fair system that allows for a clean environment in our own country and does not interfere with the free enterprise system. We also promote an aggressive search for and use of non-polluting and clean energy sources such as solar energy.

I always knew Neo-nazi groups were environmentalist but it's still funny to see it.

[Frozzy]

statistics detailed here prove beyond a shadow of a doubt

Pretty much the giveaway that the author just cherry picked aggregated statistics to try and make a 'shocking' theorem a fact.

It turns out that they didn't tell us that the "global economy" would mean that middle class American workers would eventually have to directly compete for jobs with people on the other side of the world where there is no minimum wage and very few regulations.

And of course, he picks the number one fallacy of international trade.

Firstly, a slightly factual issue. When the Seattle round of WTO talks collapsed back in 1999, one of the reasons (among many) was fears by poorer countries that labour standards on poorer countries would lead to closure of those markets.

Then, of course, the tragic assumption that middle class American workers are of equal productivity and equal skill as poorer countries. Presumably, he's just mixed up 'middle-class' for 'low-skilled' but never mind.

It's certainly arguable that workers vulnerable to offshore-outsourcing in the developed world suffer increased volatility from increased globalisation; the labour supply is more elastic. That doesn't mean that overall the entire middle class will lose all their jobs apropos of nothing to developing countries. It's a nonsense argument. You can't imagine Roche moving wholesale off to Mali.

[bipolarbear]

I agree with this so therefore it cannot be wrong. I will defend it with many poorly worded analogies and logical fallacies.

[MrFun]

• More than 40 percent of Americans who actually are employed are now working in service jobs, which are often very low paying.

This is incredibly stupid. Service jobs are also often high-paying. What you're seeing is that as low-wage countries develop manufacturing industries, the low end of the developed-world manufacturing industry goes away and is replaced with service jobs, while the high end remains (because low-wage countries can't compete in that space) and fuels the observation bias that makes people think manufacturing = high wages, service = low wages.

When I worked at Super Target a few years ago, I was paid minimum wage. So you must be talking about mid or upper level management positions in the service industry.

[Kuciwalker]

Examples of service industries:

* Government
* Healthcare/hospitals
* Public health
* Waste disposal
* Education
* Banking
* Insurance
* Financial services
* Legal services
* Consulting
* News media
* Hospitality industry (e.g. restaurants, hotels, casinos)
* Tourism
* Retail sales
* Franchising
* Real estate

You seem to think service = retail.

[Al B. Sure!]

MrFun:

There are many different types of service jobs and you know that. Service jobs run the full gamut of McDonald's employees to barbers to lawyers to stock brokers. Nor does it make any sense to say that somehow manufacturing jobs pay more (if they truly paid more, then wouldn't the Chinese garment workers be making more than Americans?). The few manufacturing jobs left in the US pay more either because of unions or because they actually are skilled positions.

The fact is, working at Target for minimum wage you're working in an unskilled labor position. Do you think you were making less than an unskilled laborer in manufacturing? Now think about a skilled laborer in service whether something like a barber (who makes more money than you'd think) or something a bit more advanced like a financial advisor? How do they compared to an equivalently skilled laborer in manufacturing?

And this minimum wage thing is crock now. I worked at minimum wage when it was only $5.15 (as late as 2006, it was $5.15) and it took only a few months to rise up the ranks. Now, the minimum wage is ****ing $7.25, which I suspect is a bigger increase than the rise in inflation ($2.10/hr increase in 3 years! That's a 40% increase!). And then factor in the fact that unless you're lazy you can move up to a supervisory position in a few months at most... Who cares about minimum wage?

[Whoha]

MrFun:
If they truly paid more, then wouldn't the Chinese garment workers be making more than Americans?

Compare the wages of Chinese garment workers to other chinese workers. Manufacturing does yield higher wage jobs on average.

[Al B. Sure!]

Compare the wages of Chinese garment workers to other chinese workers. Manufacturing does yield higher wage jobs on average.

Are the other Chinese workers farmers or are they modern service workers?

You'd have to compare the wages of Chinese garment workers with Chinese working in retail or something... then, I doubt the garment workers make much more than the retail salespeople.

[Frozzy]

When I worked at Super Target a few years ago, I was paid minimum wage. So you must be talking about mid or upper level management positions in the service industry.

The service industries employ over 75% of the labour force in the US IIRC. They don't all work at Super Target, and they can't all lose their jobs to Yae We Won and We Do Ping.