Some Muslim groups just seem to love being public enemy number one.

[Gibsie]

Yeah, they just had to settle with the old testament and the mandates of the Popes at the time.

[MikeH]

Difference is Mike, that the Crusades cannot be supported by Jesus' teachings.

As I've pointed out, neither can it with muslims.

[Nikolai]

Yes, you can. Here's a long list of verses.

Like:

Excerpt K 9:005
Set 33, Count 91
...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...

Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101
Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

------------

Many muslims don't follow these verses and perhaps understand them figuratively, but you can't say there's no support of a violent jihad in the Koran.

[giblets]

Isn't Uganda the place with the Lord's Resistance Army? It's not like Muslims have a monopoly on slaughtering people.

[MikeH]

Yes, you can. Here's a long list of verses.

Like:

Excerpt K 9:005
Set 33, Count 91
...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...

Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101
Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

------------

Many muslims don't follow these verses and perhaps understand them figuratively, but you can't say there's no support of a violent jihad in the Koran.

Did you read my thing about context? Obviously not.

[MikeH]

Isn't Uganda the place with the Lord's Resistance Army? It's not like Muslims have a monopoly on slaughtering people.

Exactly. Painting Muslims as worse than any of the others is the problem, they all have their bad guys.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Mike, I don't bother with Oerdin. He's obviously a bigot. Ben shows more understanding of Muslims.

[MikeH]

I had already resolved not to bother replying any more.

[SlowwHand]

You don't paint trim in a house with a spray painter.

[Wernazuma III]

Isn't Uganda the place with the Lord's Resistance Army? It's not like Muslims have a monopoly on slaughtering people.

Yepp, Oerdin just chose to use a country as an example where a completely mad Christian army goes berzerk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

Christians are terrists, of course.

[Nikolai]

Of course all religions have their nutjobs. No one can deny that. As for your reply above Mike: Context can only take you so far. And there are differences in religons. If not, there would only be one. I beleive Christianity has a better starting point than Islam. Just look at their respective founders; one pacifist and one warlord. But both can, and is, misused.

[Nikolai]

Yepp, Oerdin just chose to use a country as an example where a completely mad Christian army goes berzerk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

Christians are terrists, of course.

Ugh, those guys are horrible! Murder, rape and child soldiers forced to murder their parents...

[Kitschum]

As I've pointed out, neither can it with muslims.

I don't think you're trying to say that Muhammed and his immediate successors' conquests can not be supported by God (the Koran), so what are you saying? To deflect the obvous, were the conquests of Egypt and Persia self-defense?

I read your link and while the point of looking at context is fine, he misses that there is also a context to the more "peaceful" verses like 2:190. His argument is superficial in that all he can justifiably conclude is that the according to the Koran there is a time for peace and a time for war, but he runs into problems when he tries to answer "when is that time?". To be fair, everybody does.

He makes another error when he looks at the earliest verses regarding fighting with the supposition that earliest = more authoritative, but if any generalization can be made (and theological interpretation is always sticky business) it is the later suras that are considered more authoritative over the earlier, and sura 9 (with the "verse of the sword") is the next to latest. This line of thinking is followed by modern Islamist authors like Seyyid Qutb as here:

God held back Muslims from fighting in Mecca and in the early period of their migration to Medina, and told them, "Restrain your hands, and establish regular prayers, and pay Zakat". Next, they were permitted to fight: "Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they are oppressed, and God is able to help them. These are the people who were expelled from their homes without cause. The next stage came when the Muslims were commanded to fight those who fight them: "Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you." And finally, war was declared against all the polytheists: "And fight against all the polytheists, as they all fight against you;" "Fight against those among the People of the Book who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, and who do not consider the true religion as their religion, until they are subdued and pay Jizyah." Thus, according to the explanation by Imam Ibn Qayyim, the Muslims were first restrained from fighting; then they were permitted to fight; then they were commanded to fight against the aggressors; and finally they were commanded to fight against all the polytheists.

(his emphasis)

That said, the Koran does not order Muslims to kill all non-Muslims, or even all who don't convert, and this deserves no more refutation.

[Barnabas]

I don't think Oerdin is wrong

Islam is more violent than Christianity for two reasons:

Mohammed was a warrior, he was a religious leader, but also a figure quite similar to Genghis Khan. Both belonged to nomadic nations, both unified all the arabian/mongolian tribes, and once they did that they (and their descendants) set to conquer the world.

Jesus was off course completely different. He was not the warrior messiah jews exected, the kingdom of God was not of this earth, the apostles would get killed, not kill.


The other difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam was born strong, meanwhile christianity was born weak and remained an important but minority religion competing with other religions like mithraism or judaism for centuries before Constantine.

[Dinner]

Yepp, Oerdin just chose to use a country as an example where a completely mad Christian army goes berzerk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

Christians are terrists, of course.

As stated earlier. While Christians often act in very unchristian ways there is no support for such actions in the teachings of Christ. Campare that to the Muslim cult leader ordering the faithful to kill everyone else.