UK Emergency Budget

[Caligastia]

So famine and drought in other countries means that 'fairly' we should allow our old and disabled to starve to death on the streets homeless? Is that your argument really?

Will old and disabled people in Britain starve to death on the streets as a result of this budget?

[MikeH]

No, I was responding to the specific point that we shouldn't spend anything on welfare whilst there is famine and drought in the world.

[Caligastia]

I don't think that's what Kuci was saying. My impression is that he's attacking the idea of entitlement, not welfare per se.

[MikeH]

?!?!?

This is what he said. I don't think he believes this is what should happen I was questioning if that's really what he thought would be 'fair'

Also, if fairness were coherent then it would definitely be unfair that your government is spending anything on their welfare when people still die from famine and drought.

[Caligastia]

Fair enough.

[Kuciwalker]

So famine and drought in other countries means that 'fairly' we should allow our old and disabled to starve to death on the streets homeless? Is that your argument really?

Did you even read the post right above yours?

[Kuciwalker]

No, I was responding to the specific point that we shouldn't spend anything on welfare whilst there is famine and drought in the world.

So you made two errors! Not only is "let the old starve" not a consequence of the decision rule I set forth, the entire post was preceded by "if [this thing which I think is untrue] were true then".

[MikeH]

1. It was a cross post so no, but clarifying what you meant doesn't change anything.
2. There are many people in the UK who would be homeless and starve if we 'didn't spend anything on their welfare'. So you were either wrong, or weren't clear about what you meant.

[Kuciwalker]

1. It was a cross post so no, but clarifying what you meant doesn't change anything.
2. There are many people in the UK who would be homeless and starve if we 'didn't spend anything on their welfare'. So you were either wrong, or weren't clear about what you meant.

It should be blatantly obvious from both those posts and my previous comments that I'm not valuing the welfare of foreigners over the welfare of Britons, and that if it actually reached the point that diverting another £1 of spending from Britons would result in a net reduction of welfare I would oppose it.

[MikeH]

That's not what you said in the post I was objecting to. Glad that's cleared up.

[MikeH]

I think for discussions of fairness relating to a national government we can assume for the purposes of our discussion it relates to fairness between their citizens (and perhaps to people allowed to live, work and pay tax in their country) not to people who are the responsibility of other governments.

Otherwise it's just silly.

[Kuciwalker]

That's not what you said in the post I was objecting to. Glad that's cleared up.

You're right; my original statement was overbroad.

[Kuciwalker]

I think for discussions of fairness relating to a national government we can assume for the purposes of our discussion it relates to fairness between their citizens (and perhaps to people allowed to live, work and pay tax in their country) not to people who are the responsibility of other governments.

Otherwise it's just silly.

Ah, but then we run into my original point, to wit:

The idea that the level of material consumption you are entitled to is based on where you were born is nearly as pernicious as the idea that it's based on who your parents were.

i.e. the type of fairness you're talking about is also silly.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Kuci- give us the figures you're so blatantly trying to avoid committing yourself to, or I'm going to become firmly convinced that you have no testicles at all.

Give us the figures, coward.

[Kuciwalker]

You seriously want to me tell you the precise tax and spending regime for the UK that would maximize global utility?

Since you're the one who thinks it's possible to answer such a question, why don't you go first - exactly what regime do you think your government should adopt? To three decimal places, please.