The Winter War.

[Dinner]

I was recently watching Thames Entertainment's series The World At War. It's one of those documentary series which defines an age; we're talking monumental impact in the English speaking world. No WW2 documentary had larger impact in the English speaking world. The funny thing is that Churchill wanted to occupy Norway to cut off Swedish metal supplies which were exported via the Norwegian port of Norvik and Churchill wanted to supply Finnish forces against Soviet forces via the Norwegian port of Norvik. The very day the UK planned to invade Norway and take Norvik Finland surrendered to the USSR. Nazi Germany also brokr through and forced Norwegian surrender.

Isn't it ironic?

[Dinner]

"Thank God for the French Army." Winston Churchill 1933. "Victory is a very dangerous thing." French General Andre Beaufre. 1938

The British were relaying upon the French Army to stop the Germans while France itself had gone into very deep decay. The French high command had learned almost nothing from WW1 and instead of modernizing they relayed more and more on the horse. Even in 1939 when death was obvious the French relayed on WW1 tactics.

[BeBMan]

The French high command had learned almost nothing from WW1 and instead of modernizing the relayed more and more on the horse. Even in 1939 when death was obvious the French relayed on WW1 tactics.

Well, they did learn, but the wrong lessons.

The Maginot Line was certainly a consequence of WWI. Also, the western allies didn't have Spain as a test range for new weapons and tactics like the axis had. Afaik amongst the French De Gaulle had modern ideas about tank warfare etc., but he wasn't that important pre-WW2 to get them through. The old guard in the French military was mostly influenced by WWI indeed.

[Dinner]

Achtung Panzer by Hans Guderian laid out modern Blitzkrieg warfare in explicit detail. Unfortunately the British didn't take him seriously while the French thought him a detraction from the WW1 lessons they didn't learn.

[Dinner]

Well, they did learn, but the wrong lessons.

The Maginot Line was certainly a consequence of WWI. Also, the western allies didn't have Spain as a test range for new weapons and tactics like the axis had. Afaik amongst the French De Gaulle had modern ideas about tank warfare etc., but he wasn't that important pre-WW2 to get them through. The old guard in the French military was mostly influenced by WWI indeed.

Bull. The west had just as much opportunity to test tactics in the Spain Civil war but they choose not to learn.

[BeBMan]

The west? "Intl Brigades" in Spain don't translate into regular Anglo-French military...
edit: like Legion Condor or the Italian Expeditionary Corps did for axis.

[Dinner]

Bebro: I remember your posts from 2003 when you told me you Germans knew exactly how much to value Italian military support. The funny thing was I was recently talking to my father (who is British but has an Italian girlfriend) and he told me that in 1991 when the allies attacked Iraq 12 Italian planes took part. 11 of those planes broke down before reaching the target and the 12th with shot down even though not a single American or British plane was shot down. Doesn't that say how worthless Italians are?

[BeBMan]

Well, what do I remember about my old posts But yeah, I agree re Italy. IIRC there were certain Italian units that fought well though (some of the mountain troops for example), so it's not that they were all bad, but overall their military was in no shape to participate in a large-scale war as WWII, which they had to find out the hard way. They were completely overstretched and under-equipped already when the war broke out.

[giblets]

The Atmark Incident.

Interesting to see how much the British and Germans relayed on Norvik. Even when death was obvious Norway tried to maintain neutrality which was a detraction but they choose not to learn.

[Kitschum]

I'd double check that chronology if I felt it mattered, but anyway.

During the Winter War, the Swedish government suspected Churchill had plans to occupy the northern Swedish ore fields. The request to transit troops supposedly to aid Finland was turned down.

[Kitschum]

BTW, it's ****ing spelled Narvik

[Kitschum]

Interesting to see how much the British and Germans relayed on Norvik. Even when death was obvious Norway tried to maintain neutrality which was a detraction but they choose not to learn.

I had to check which incident you referenced. But I don't understand why you think "death" was obvious. The invasion of Norway was very hard fought and might very well have failed.

[Serb]

I was recently watching Thames Entertainment's series The World At War. It's one of those documentary series which defines an age; we're talking monumental impact in the English speaking world. No WW2 documentary had larger impact in the English speaking world. The funny thing is that Churchill wanted to occupy Norway to cut off Swedish metal supplies which were exported via the Norwegian port of Norvik and Churchill wanted to supply Finnish forces against Soviet forces via the Norwegian port of Norvik. The very day the UK planned to invade Norway and take Norvik Finland surrendered to the USSR. Nazi Germany also brokr through and forced Norwegian surrender.

Isn't it ironic?

Nope. What is really ironic is that we, both of us, were born at the same exact day.
It's May 15 here already, so...
Happy birthday, buddy (though somethimes I really hate you ).

[David Floyd]

The Winter War somewhat nearly led to war between the Soviets and UK/France. A proposed response was to bomb the Caucasus oil fields using air bases in the Middle East.

I kind of wonder how the war would have turned out in this case. I can't see Hitler giving up on Barbarossa a year and a half later, I can't see France surviving, and I can't see Britain cooperating with either Germany or the Soviet Union against the other.

Even better, I can't see US Lend Lease to the Soviet Union. That would mean significantly more for Nationalist China, for example, as well as a somewhat better armed US Army early on. But mostly, it would mean a wrecked Soviet Union, a wrecked Nazi Germany, naturally a wrecked Japan, and a United States even more dominant in 1945 than it was historically.

Kinda wish that outcome had happened, actually

[Drake Tungsten]

the Norwegian port of Norvik and Churchill wanted to supply Finnish forces against Soviet forces via the Norwegian port of Norvik. The very day the UK planned to invade Norway and take Norvik

It's Narvik, dumbass.