Wikileaks, the US Government, and the slaughter of civilians

[Ecofarm]

IF we include all civilians who have died (by any cause including old age) since 2003. And we base this belief on a Lancet article that has been fully discredited (years ago). Of course, though, the conspiracy theorist guy takes the discredited outlier as fact.

[HalfLotus]

The figure of 1 million deaths goes well beyond the Lancet numbers, and is more or less accepted among those aren't warmonger apologists or corporate media tools. Unfortunately for you, you're both.


The Media Ignore Credible Poll Revealing 1.2 Million Violent Deaths In Iraq

[Ecofarm]

This guy is for real?


That's it. I'm not buying it anymore. I bet it is, like, Drake or someone just making fun. I refuse to believe that 1/2lotus is an actual person; noone is that lame.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

The figure of 1 million deaths goes well beyond the Lancet numbers, and is more or less accepted among those aren't warmonger apologists or corporate media tools. Unfortunately for you, you're both.


The Media Ignore Credible Poll Revealing 1.2 Million Violent Deaths In Iraq

Iraq Body Count and Reuters, neither of which are noted as apologists, put it as about 10% of that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BU3JU20100101

[Patroklos]

http://icasualties.org/Iraq/IraqiDeaths.aspx

Icasualties puts it at around 50K, but they admit they are only reporting deaths with hard evidence to support them and freely admit many deaths go unreported. That being said I doubt they are off by a factor of 20. Civilian deaths are far below a million.

[HalfLotus]

Iraq Body Count and Reuters, neither of which are noted as apologists, put it as about 10% of that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BU3JU20100101

IBC figures are known to represent a significant undercount (which they readily acknowledge) due to their methodology.

[HalfLotus]

http://icasualties.org/Iraq/IraqiDeaths.aspx

Icasualties puts it at around 50K, but they admit they are only reporting deaths with hard evidence to support them and freely admit many deaths go unreported. That being said I doubt they are off by a factor of 20. Civilian deaths are far below a million.

If we know anything about wars and military conflicts, it's that reported casualty rates for ongoing theaters are often underreported by a factor of 10 or higher. A factor of 20 wouldn't be all that surprising.

[Ecofarm]

I think inflating known numbers by a factor of power (or 20) is probably a good idea, in general.

[Patroklos]

If we know anything about wars and military conflicts, it's that reported casualty rates for ongoing theaters are often underreported by a factor of 10 or higher. A factor of 20 wouldn't be all that surprising.

Thats nice. Please source. Unless you are going to claim 40 million civilians died in Vietnam.

[HalfLotus]

Read above, dimwit. You and others are quoting figures which are known to be underreported deaths, and basing your estimates on them. You're morons.

You claim that the figure is far below a million, but with no evidence to support it.

The ORB survey I linked is a valid estimate, and puts the total at 946,000 to 1,120,000. End of story.

[Patroklos]

I find it odd you feel the need to point this out when both myself B*B both made a point of stating that our sources were based *gasp* evidence of some sort. Or in other words, the numbers are infinitely more reliable than your guesstimations.

However, your still made a claim of:

If we know anything about wars and military conflicts, it's that reported casualty rates for ongoing theaters are often underreported by a factor of 10 or higher. A factor of 20 wouldn't be all that surprising.

You have provided nothing that remotely points to this being anything other than a convienience you pulled out of your ass. Please provide us with a source that says inflating casualties by 10 times or more is some law of military science.

Or you can just admit you made it up.

Just to play spoiler, during the recent Georgian war the civilian casualties were actually 10-20 times LESS than initially reported. Reconcile this with your position.

[HalfLotus]

My goodness you're dense. The evidence of underreported casualties is right here in this thread. You and some other bozo trumpting IBC and Icas numbers which are off of the ORB survey by roughly a factor of 10 and 20, respectively.

As for the Georgia conflict, which was a highly controlled psyop from the get go, the exaggerated numbers reported in the western media are in line with the west's intent to demonize Russia and paint them as violent aggressors.

Are you really this naive about western media when it comes to war reporting? These aren't wild-eyed conspiracy theories, anyone with a shred of common sense understands that western media tends to paint western powers in a positive light, and others in a negative light.

[Patroklos]

My goodness you're dense. The evidence of underreported casualties is right here in this thread. You and some other bozo trumpting IBC and Icas numbers which are off of the ORB survey by roughly a factor of 10 and 20, respectively.

Why does anyone care about what the ORB survey says when we have people counting actual dealths using actual evidence? You have a problem, and that problem is that observed reality and your wishful thinking are off by a factor of 20. As I stated the Icasualty number an evidence backed lower limit, but how do you explain a 20 times difference? You honestly think that for every body found there are 20 more out there undiscoverd?

Hell you can't even reconcile the different estimates themselves, which range from 100,000 to 1,000,000. Whats so special about the ORB estimate relative to the Associated Press or Iraqi Family Health survey?

As for the Georgia conflict, which was a highly controlled psyop from the get go, the exaggerated numbers reported in the western media are in line with the west's intent to demonize Russia and paint them as violent aggressors.

Ah, I see you are retarded.

You obviously were not paying attentiong, because the inflated civilian numbers were from the RUSSIAN government.

But I see you were unable to reconcile reality with your imagination, as expected.

Are you really this naive about western media when it comes to war reporting? These aren't wild-eyed conspiracy theories, anyone with a shred of common sense understands that western media tends to paint western powers in a positive light, and others in a negative light.

This is where you would have posted evidence of your supposed "well know" concept of military casualty inflation.

Instead we get some BS about western media that itself is also unsupported. Its also quite hilarious that you think western media underreports civilian casualties. Really, thats comedic gold.

You pulled your position out of your ass. Accept it and move on.

[HalfLotus]

Why does anyone care about what the ORB survey says when we have people counting actual dealths using actual evidence?

Because some people are interested in the actual human toll of the Iraq war, and estimates from IBC and Icas don't even attempt to give us that. They are good for what they are, but they are not accurate estimates of casualties.