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PedoPriests: Can the Pope be charged as a criminal?

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  • PedoPriests: Can the Pope be charged as a criminal?



    Can the Pope be charged as a criminal?
    Lawyers debate whether U.K. courts can arrest visiting pontiff on 'universal jurisdiction' warrant

    LONDON–Protests are growing against Pope Benedict XVI's planned trip this fall to Britain, where the legal world is debating whether the Vatican's implicit statehood could shield the Pope from potential prosecution related to sex crimes by pedophile priests.

    More than 10,000 people have signed an online petition to Prime Minister Gordon Brown opposing the Pope's four-day visit to England and Scotland in September.

    The campaign has gained momentum as more Catholic sex- abuse scandals shake Europe.

    Although Benedict has not been accused of any crime, senior British lawyers are now examining whether the Pope should have immunity as a head of state and whether he could be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction for an alleged systematic cover-up of sexual abuses by priests.

    Universal jurisdiction – a concept in international law – allows judges to issue warrants for nearly any visitor accused of grievous crimes, no matter where they live. British judges have been more open to the concept than those elsewhere.

    Lawyers are divided over the immunity issue. Some argue the Vatican isn't a true state, while others note it has national relations with about 170 countries, including Britain.

    David Crane, former chief prosecutor at the Sierra Leone war crimes tribunal, said it would be difficult to implicate the Pope in anything criminal.

    "It's a fascinating kind of academic, theoretical discussion," said Crane, who prosecuted Sierra Leone's Charles Taylor when he was still a sitting head of state. "At this point, there's no liability at all."

    But Geoffrey Robertson, who as a UN appeals judge delivered key decisions on the illegality of conscripting child soldiers and the invalidity of amnesties for war crimes, believes it could be time to challenge the immunity of the Pope – and Britain could be the place.

    "Unlike in the United States, where the judges commonly uphold what the executive says, the British courts don't accept these things at face value," Robertson said on Saturday.

    Lawyers question whether an alleged systematic cover-up could be considered a crime against humanity – a charge usually reserved for the International Criminal Court – and whether it could be pursued under universal jurisdiction.

    "My guess is the weight of opinion would allow the Pope to enjoy immunity," said Hurst Hannum, of Tufts University. "It's not automatically clear that the Holy See is a state, although it's treated as one for almost every purpose."

    Spain and Britain jointly pioneered the universal jurisdiction concept when, in 1998, Britain executed a Spanish arrest warrant for former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet on torture claims. He was under house arrest in London until ruled unfit to stand trial in 2000.
    Of course it will never happen. But an interesting discussion.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

  • #2
    What's an "implied" state? Haven't run into that term before.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #3
      It's almost like you want to argue with Ben.

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      • #4
        He could at least resign. But that would be seen as admitting responsibility so I doubt it will happen either.
        Blah

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        • #5
          Originally posted by BeBro View Post
          He could at least resign. But that would be seen as admitting responsibility so I doubt it will happen either.
          Plus he would lose immunity, if any, as a head of state.
          Pool Manager - Lombardi Handicappers League - An NFL Pick 'Em Pool

          https://youtu.be/HLNhPMQnWu4

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          • #6
            The principle of universal jurisdiction is another troubling part of the UK police state. Cameras on every corner, ASBO taking away defendants rights, firearm restrictions, libel abuse, and now they want to apply their laws to everybody. Even if this instance were justified, it'd establish a pattern of behavior and precedence in common law so that soon they'll feel entitled to expand their jurisdiction even further. It's times like this I thank God I'm an American, and am therefore free of British tyranny.
            John Brown did nothing wrong.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Felch View Post
              The principle of universal jurisdiction is another troubling part of the UK police state. Cameras on every corner, ASBO taking away defendants rights, firearm restrictions, libel abuse, and now they want to apply their laws to everybody. Even if this instance were justified, it'd establish a pattern of behavior and precedence in common law so that soon they'll feel entitled to expand their jurisdiction even further. It's times like this I thank God I'm an American, and am therefore free of British tyranny.
              Britain is rapidly devolving into a full blown police state. Its nothing unexpected really, Metternich did mostly the same thing (as far as the tech of the time allowed it) in the hopes of keeping diverse Austro-Hungary together.
              Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
              The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
              The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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              • #8
                The worst thing is that they are not providing pneumatic sexual playthings and opiates to ensure our social obedience under the dystopian jackboot. We still have to pay.
                B*******.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by gribbler View Post
                  It's almost like you want to argue with Ben.
                  "My nation is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine
                  "The subject of onanism is inexhaustable." --Sigmund Freud

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Felch View Post
                    firearm restrictions ... British tyranny.
                    I'm the first to be concerned about authoritarianism here in Britain, but we don't need USAians telling us we should all be carrying guns, thank-you very much.

                    Perhaps someone can remind us of the murder rates in the two countries.

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                    • #11
                      USA: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
                      Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
                      UK: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
                      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                      • #12
                        wrt the OP - of course 'Universal jurisdiction' is a pile of complete bollocks. Though, not bollocks exclusive to any one country.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cort Haus View Post
                          I'm the first to be concerned about authoritarianism here in Britain, but we don't need USAians telling us we should all be carrying guns, thank-you very much.

                          Perhaps someone can remind us of the murder rates in the two countries.
                          I don't know Switzerland dosen't seem to have such a high murder rate and they have lots of guns.
                          Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                          The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                          The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cort Haus View Post
                            but we don't need USAians telling us we should all be carrying guns, thank-you very much.
                            You should all be carrying guns.

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for that, R4

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