[HBD] What factors contribute to a high Central European IQ? [serious]

[Heraclitus]

Lynn in his 2002 book gives an average Slovenian IQ of 95. Which is somewhat low for a European nation, its a few points below Norway, Canada and a point or so above Ireland and Greece. Historically its been stable for the last decade at least (no Flynn effect to the rescue).And since we have a very low birth rate and are part of the European Union I can't see the state's average IQ gong anywhere but down and Its clear we have had a generational brain drain for centuries where the best and brightest would opt to become Germans, Italians or even Hungarians. An alternate explanation is that we are just a slightly high Balcan outlier (Romania having an IQ of 94 might be another such example). I just wanted to get that out of the way to make sure no one thinks I consider my own group to be part of Central Europe in this context.




Looking at a map of Europe it seems Central European nations have the highest European IQ's
I've heard figures of Germans and Dutch being in the 105, 106 range which is almost comparable to East Asians (Hong Kong, Singapore both at 108, North & South Korea at 106), they are somewhat belivable considering that the average IQ of the German population was about 102 as late as 2002. Eastern Central Europe is about a point or two below 100 but seems to be gaining IQ points solidly over the past decade which might point to the fact that the Flynn effect may have a bit left to go.

I've recently stumbled upon this topic on a blog, don't really remember which one. Its also neat since it sort of explains away part of the Ashkenazi anomalously high IQ (the persecution & clergy hypothesis while appealing dosen't really explain why other equally persecuted and Talmud studying Jews don't measure up to the Askhenazi).



What factors do you think have historically led to selection for or against high IQs in the last ~100,000 years? And which ones in the last ~10,000?

[Felch]

It probably comes down to better childhood nutrition, or some other mundane factor.

[Heraclitus]

It probably comes down to better childhood nutrition, or some other mundane factor.

Possible. I could see nutritonal deficiencies holding back some Scandinavian countries.


However the problem with this are the Volga Germans and the global Askenazi Jewish diaspora. Sure a lot of cultural baggage and perhaps even food choices but the vast range of environments make this explanation a somewhat lacking one.

Is the environemnt that much more hostile or polluted in in Slovenia than in Southern Germany or Northern Italy to produce a 7+ point gap?

[Japher]

As a Republican I will probably get some slack for this, but I think the real source of a high Intelligence Quotient is a liberal mindset. Now, I don't mean to say that what the Dems do or suggest is right, but I think a mindset that is open to other's ways of life indicates a predisposition to question everything, formulate one's own opinion, and to discern real truths from what they are questioning. Conservative "status quo" mindset will not lead to the same rationalizations, which in many cases are right, but it voids an individual of everything that makes them an individual and thus limits their learning capacity.

IMO, the EU is more liberal, maybe central Europe is even more so. Still, the freedom of thought granted by liberal societies yields a greater IQ.

Please note, however, that I also hold the opinion that a local level liberal leaders are most ideal and that at a national level a conservative leader is more ideal. Thus, I would be more prone to vote for a Gavin Newsom as a mayor and more likely to vote for a Newt Grengrich as a Senator.

[Heraclitus]

As a Republican I will probably get some slack for this, but I think the real source of a high Intelligence Quotient is a liberal mindset. Now, I don't mean to say that what the Dems do or suggest is right, but I think a mindset that is open to other's ways of life indicates a predisposition to question everything, formulate one's own opinion, and to discern real truths from what they are questioning. Conservative "status quo" mindset will not lead to the same rationalizations, which in many cases are right, but it voids an individual of everything that makes them an individual and thus limits their learning capacity.

IMO, the EU is more liberal, maybe central Europe is even more so. Still, the freedom of thought granted by liberal societies yields a greater IQ.

Please note, however, that I also hold the opinion that a local level liberal leaders are most ideal and that at a national level a conservative leader is more ideal. Thus, I would be more prone to vote for a Gavin Newsom as a mayor and more likely to vote for a Newt Grengrich as a Senator.

People tend to believe what their parents believe. What you are missing here is the fact that what is conservative is different radically from society to society.



As to a society that question preconceived notions.... well that presupposes free speech and the openness to scientific evidence doesn't it? And we don't really have free speech in most European countries anymore.

Also this once again doesn't explain the Volga Germans.

[ricketyclik]

"Flynn effect"?

Japher: Wow, that is some mightily sophisticated thinking for a Pug

[Kitschum]

Heraclitus, why do you seem to be stuck on the "fact" that Slovenians have an "average" IQ of 95? Does that make you feel inferior?

But wait, I have another point to make. At least in 2002, Lynn's (only) data for Iran came from a study on school children in Shiraz in the 50s. The study concluded that they scored relatively low because they were not Westernized and not yet accustomed to thinking analytically. Lynn apparently ignores this and uses the results to "set" a national IQ for Iran of 84 (in 2002). It's the only source of his that I looked up, but by the Wiki page on the book it appears that many similar criticisms have been made.

I have other reasons to believe the score for Iran makes no sense. Statistics from my own country on people of 25 years of age who have started higher education show that 45% of those born in Iran have done so (the same as for native Swedes). Other high scorers are immigrants from Finland with 44% and from Poland with 42%. Contrast to only 21% of Lebanese, 20% of Iraqis and 17% of Yugoslavs (probably to be understood as Serbs and Montenegrins).

That is not really what you'd expect if Iranians had an average IQ of 84, below Lebanon 86 and Iraq 87. I'm not sure why I should listen to Lynn at all.

[Kidlicious]

[HBD] What factors contribute to a high Central European IQ? [serious]

Let me guess... because you are one?

[Heraclitus]

[HBD] What factors contribute to a high Central European IQ? [serious]

Let me guess... because you are one?

Didn't read the OP did you?

Heraclitus, why do you seem to be stuck on the "fact" that Slovenians have an "average" IQ of 95? Does that make you feel inferior?

I started the OP with my nation's average IQ to make sure people wouldn't misunderstand and think I was coming from a supremacist standpoint.

But wait, I have another point to make. At least in 2002, Lynn's (only) data for Iran came from a study on school children in Shiraz in the 50s. The study concluded that they scored relatively low because they were not Westernized and not yet accustomed to thinking analytically. Lynn apparently ignores this and uses the results to "set" a national IQ for Iran of 84 (in 2002). It's the only source of his that I looked up, but by the Wiki page on the book it appears that many similar criticisms have been made.

Lynn makes galring mistakes on several occasions. The Iranian IQ has been well noted among HBD supporters to probably being much higher considering the nations historic contributions. Italy's high IQ (102) also makes little sense since Southern Italy is indicated in several studies to have IQ's in the low 90's or even high 80's. They also stand out compared to other Southern European countries. Croatia is another country which's score makes little sense (90) considering their historic accomplishmentss. Lithuania also has an anomalusly low IQ compared to its neighbours according to Lynn which will probably get revised.

I have other reasons to believe the score for Iran makes no sense. Statistics from my own country on people of 25 years of age who have started higher education show that 45% of those born in Iran have done so (the same as for native Swedes). Other high scorers are immigrants from Finland with 44% and from Poland with 42%. Contrast to only 21% of Lebanese, 20% of Iraqis and 17% of Yugoslavs (probably to be understood as Serbs and Montenegrins).

That is not really what you'd expect if Iranians had an average IQ of 84, below Lebanon 86 and Iraq 87. I'm not sure why I should listen to Lynn at all.

You do realize the Islamic revolution might give the Iranian diaspora a boost right? I think Iran probably has a IQ comparable to that of Turkey (~90-which is globaly speaking pretty high just a few points below Souther European average).


As to Yugoslav immigrants, you must remember that large Gypsy (they probably cluster with the Indian subcontinent on IQ scores) and Albanian populations exists in many Balcan countries also the much like Slovenia, Balcan countries cluster in the lower 90's regardin IQ (Greece 92, Romania 94, ect.)

[Kidlicious]

Didn't read the OP did you?

The thread title alone was so incredible that I couldn't handle the whol post.

[VetLegion]

His Croatian figures are based on a 1953 raven progressive matrices test
taken by 200 school pupils or something like that. The figure of 90 is arrived
at by adding an estimate of the Flynn effect.

Normally I don't mind genetic explanations, but I think that a difference of
15 points between Croatians and the Germans is pretty suspect and
can't be explained by genetics. That is, if the testing was done today, I think
the difference would be small, only a couple of points.

The pupils who took the test in 1953 were probably malnutritioned because of
the war. Also, Croatia was a largely peasant country at the time.

I don't follow the literature, so I don't know if more up to date international
comparisons have been made. Certainly, the topic is sensitive.

However, perhaps the internets can come to the rescue here? I've noticed
a lot of ads recently asking me to fill out an IQ test... the scores are probably
aggregated at the country level. The only problem I see is the poorer countries
having an advantage in that the early adopters of internet are the academia
and the educated/smart elite. Perhaps online access is widespread enough
by now to offset that, who knows. I think that soon enough we're going to
have precise and up to date figures on national IQs.

[Al B. Sure!]

Heraclitus:

I'm not knowledgeable on this subject but I find it hard to believe such large discrepancies in IQ's between ethnic groups has to do with anything other than nutrition and an acquired tendency to think analytically so comparisons can be shot. I know it's repeating your question but what other factors possibly could contribute? I can't think of any others, besides, well Germans are superior and humanity went down that road before so scratch that one off

I would expect a study controlling for those variables would show similar IQ's (ie- noting proper diet throughout formative years and similar schooling [perhaps a study of college graduates would work to alleviate some of the differences although then it no longer becomes useful for judging mean IQ of the population]).

Like even with these supposedly low Middle Eastern IQ's in the 80's and 90's... considering the history of the region (dawn of civilization through to the immense medieval Arab/Persian contributions to human knowledge), would it be possible for all that to occur with borderline simple average people?

[Cort Haus]

Heraclitus, just stop obsessing about IQ and find yourself another hobby.

[Barnabas]

If you want an old pre ww2 answer to that question, then reason could be bracychephaly and higher cranial capacity

Central europeans are the most "round headed" europeans

I think it is all bull****, but you might find that interesting

[Al B. Sure!]

I wouldn't be so sure about that as a pre-WW2 viewpoint. The racist who is most often credited with formulating Nordic/Aryan theory, Madison Grant, in his The Passing of the Great Race wrote:

In considering skull characters we must remember that, while indicative of independent descent, the size and shape of the head are not closely related to brain power.

he goes on to say...

The mental characteristics of the Mediterranean race are well known, and this race, while inferior in bodily stamina to both the Nordic and the Alpine, is probably the superior of both, certainly of the Alpines, in intellectual attainments. In the field of art its superiority to both the other European races is unquestioned.

This coming from a racist whose book had a profound effect upon Hitler (apparently Hitler even wrote him a fan letter). I don't think the Nazis thought of the Nordic people as greater thinkers or artists than anyone else. They seemed more concerned with being tough and hardy warriors than great creative intellectuals.