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Further meditations on space combat

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  • Further meditations on space combat

    People seemed to like the first one, before it sunk like a rock from lack of contributions. So, again...with feeling this time! Throw your wild-ass nerdy speculations in here with abandon! Same rules as before: try to stick to mostly known physics, with allowances for increased efficiency. You want to invent iffy nonsense like warp drives, you might as well be arguing about Tolkien.

    Last time around, somebody remarked that rail guns/mass drivers are overengineered in space; due to the speed at which craft are traveling, an object moving at much lower speed would be just as lethal. On reflection, I disagree. Two spacecraft in battle are highly unlikely to be rocketing towards each other at a high rate of speed. Space isn't jousting. Furthermore, sans "inertial damping," achieving high speeds in battle is difficult, counterproductive and dangerous. You won't have time to achieve it without killing the crew, you won't be able to change it from a predictable straight line without killing the crew, you basically can't do a damned thing without killing the crew. So forget it. Any spaceship in battle is likely to be going at more reasonable speeds.

    Given that it's possible to go much faster than humans can tolerate already, that AI is likely to be much more sophisticated and cost-effective in the future, and that a hit from a mass-driver slug is somewhat akin to being punched in the face by God, space combat is going to be very dangerous. The only way to last more than a few seconds once the battle starts is by way of vigorous active defenses: laser interception systems, AEGIS-type missiles and automated defense drones. The ship can't possibly move fast enough to evade attack, and no conceivable armor could stand up to a hunk of metal moving at something like a hundred miles per second ("shields" are not presently possible or even theoretically conceivable, are they?). Missile-wise, there's no reason not to use H-bombs in space. Therefore it must have things around it that can move and react a hell of a lot faster than it can, no? Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Now, about weapons: I'm obsessed with mass-drivers for a reason. Lasers are cool and all, but I understand that ablative armor is quite effective even with minimal thickness. Come to think of it, maybe you could have ablative-armored driver shells to make defensive lasers perfectly useless. That's a pleasant thought! Anyway, once you're moving around a big honking space ship, you might as well protect your investment with about a foot and a half of vaporizing protection. At which point, to hell with lasers.

    Missiles are another possibility, but they can be intercepted more easily than shells, they take up more space, and their guided-ness isn't likely to come into play as much in the relative emptiness of space. You want something compact and hella fast. Missiles are for when you've just sighted the enemy at extreme distance, you aren't sure he's sighted you and you don't want to give away your position. The missiles are also necessary at that distance for purposes of accuracy; very small vibrations in the ship will cause huge errors over distance.

    If that fails and the two of you get down to business, you power up the big gun and start whaling. Of course I say "big gun" and not "big guns" because there's a problem with recoil, and in slippery space a little recoil goes a long way. I think you'd want a gun located in line with the central axis of the ship, so you can compensate effectively using pulses from the engine. Plus such a gun could run much deeper and thus shoot much faster by using more magnets in a row (I'm assuming a Gauss-cannon type design).

    Sudden thought: there's absolutely nothing keeping you from storing missiles outside the ship proper, except that maybe launching them would impart a tiny but annoying amount of spin to the ship, unless they were launched symmetrically. Also, several parallel mass drivers might have some merit in terms of faking out defensive systems. Okay, this post is ginormous enough.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    I always thought it was funny that Star Wars won academy awards for sound when there is no sound in space.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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    • #3
      The enemy's gate is down.
      If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
      ){ :|:& };:

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      • #4
        Damn I missed the first edition of this
        Blah

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        • #5
          AAHZ-Summery™?
          The Wizard of AAHZ

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          • #6
            Firstly, I wouldn't contemplate for a second having my space combat vehicle being manned. Work from there.
            Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
            Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
            We've got both kinds

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            • #7
              Sudden thought: there's absolutely nothing keeping you from storing missiles outside the ship proper, except that maybe launching them would impart a tiny but annoying amount of spin to the ship, unless they were launched symmetrically. Also, several parallel mass drivers might have some merit in terms of faking out defensive systems. Okay, this post is ginormous enough.
              Just detach the missiles before they start up their own propulsion.

              I am not sure why you think guidance would not be helpful. Mass Drivers might be fast, but we are talking about combat at extreme distances. Also, why can't the mass driver shells themselves be guided?
              "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by AAHZ View Post
                AAHZ-Summeryâ„¢?
                No. Certainly not until you spell summary correctly, and probably not after that.

                Mike, are you suggesting remote control or complete automation? The former makes assault impractical; it might take minutes, hours or days for a ship to receive and respond to an order, unless it has a commander on a nearby planet, and there are obvious problems with that requirement.

                The latter...hmmm. Would you trust the outcome of battles entirely to computers? I would certainly trust a large amount of it to computers, with a large number of auxiliary ships surrounding one or two inhabited command craft to monitor their behavior/progress. I guess it depends entirely on how sophisticated the AI is.

                But it might not be the sort of thing in which you have a choice. You're going to need to move people around space sometime, and those people are going to need a means of defense. The attacking ship might well be a robot, but the defender will generally be human. Unless you posit a kind of agreement that wars be fought entirely by robot proxies, and I can't see that lasting long. In a real war, humans are the real target. A transport bearing a load of soldiers to occupy the enemy colony/base/whatever might have a dozen robotic escorts, but they won't be nearly as tempting a target as that fat, relatively helpless transport. I'm assuming here you're not thinking of robot soldiers to occupy as well. All this automation is efficient, but it might not be as cost-effective as grey matter.

                Still, good point. I guess I'm stuck a little in a Star Trek mindset here.
                1011 1100
                Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                • #9
                  Wow, this thread is already going better than the last one.

                  Originally posted by Patroklos View Post
                  Just detach the missiles before they start up their own propulsion.
                  Oh. Yeah.

                  I am not sure why you think guidance would not be helpful. Mass Drivers might be fast, but we are talking about combat at extreme distances. Also, why can't the mass driver shells themselves be guided?
                  Guided...as in, thrusters and sensors on the shells so they can compensate in flight? They're going to have to be pretty robust to not take damage from the extreme acceleration and magnetic fields of the gun. But I imagine that's at least theoretically surmountable, so you're right. Guided mass driver shells...cool. The advantage of missiles would be flexibility, since a shell can't circle around freely.
                  1011 1100
                  Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Elok View Post
                    Guided...as in, thrusters and sensors on the shells so they can compensate in flight? They're going to have to be pretty robust to not take damage from the extreme acceleration and magnetic fields of the gun. But I imagine that's at least theoretically surmountable, so you're right. Guided mass driver shells...cool. The advantage of missiles would be flexibility, since a shell can't circle around freely.
                    Right now we are perfecting guided artillery munitions which can not only survive the acceleration but also the initial explosion of firing. Granted these will be atmospheric so their manuever mechanism is movable fins instead of thrusters, but they still have electric components to figure out where the shell is and where it is going that have to survive as well.

                    We are designing naval rail guns right now that will use magnetic fields for acceperation using guided shells, so while we are obviously talking about far more powerful systems in space combat it is theoretically possible.
                    "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                    • #11
                      BeBro:



                      Apparently memory was flawed on my part. There was a flurry of posting for like three days before Kuci bullyboyed all the speculation into submission. Kuci I'm not sure why I didn't participate more in that thread. Maybe I was just too entranced by my then-GF's presence or something.
                      1011 1100
                      Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Patroklos View Post
                        Right now we are perfecting guided artillery munitions which can not only survive the acceleration but also the initial explosion of firing. Granted these will be atmospheric so their manuever mechanism is movable fins instead of thrusters, but they still have electric components to figure out where the shell is and where it is going that have to survive as well.

                        We are designing naval rail guns right now that will use magnetic fields for acceperation using guided shells, so while we are obviously talking about far more powerful systems in space combat it is theoretically possible.
                        I didn't know you were planning to guide the shells. I read on wiki that the major problem was keeping the rails from vaporizing due to friction, is that true or just WikiBS?
                        1011 1100
                        Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                        • #13
                          A question on shields specific to rail gun defense.

                          Since we are using magnetic fields to accelerate projectiles, can we then use magnetic fields to slow them down/deflect them?

                          As I understand a large electric current is passed through the projectile when firing to allow it to interact with the magnetic fields accelerating it, so I guess you would still need that electric current for a defensive magnetic field to interact with it too. Or in other words a defenisve magnetic field wouldn't work. Is this correct?
                          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elok View Post
                            I didn't know you were planning to guide the shells. I read on wiki that the major problem was keeping the rails from vaporizing due to friction, is that true or just WikiBS?
                            It can't right now, but it is supposed to replace current guided missile munitions so I would imagine they would be using guided ammunition. I don't see an unguided muntion being able replace current precision weaponry when we are talking about ranges over 200 nautical miles. That is one hell of a shot without guidance.
                            "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                            • #15
                              oh i see its a nerd argument LOL
                              The Wizard of AAHZ

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