Should Georgia take Abkhazia back during the 2014 Winter Olympics?

[Berzerker]

well, you didn't answer my question so...

Q. What are Georgia and Russia fighting over?

A: Georgia launched a military strike on the province of South Ossetia, aiming to reclaim it after 16 years of semi-independence. In response, Russia sent tanks in. Moscow says Georgian forces had killed Russian peacekeepers there and were committing acts of "ethnic cleansing" of native Russians living there.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-08-08-question-answer_N.htm

That was my understanding of events, so **** off Drake. Save your BS for someone within arms reach.

[Drake Tungsten]

That was my understanding of events

I know it is. That's what's so sad.

[Berzerker]

take it up with USA Today, or post your own link.

[Drake Tungsten]

Russia contends that on the night the war began, Aug. 7, they were simply responding to a Georgian attack on the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and the threat to the lives of Russian and Ossetian civilians there. But that scenario does not explain the widely documented buildup since the spring of Russian forces just across the border from South Ossetia, which made it possible for up to 150 tanks to cross into South Ossetia within hours of the Russian order to attack.

Russian officials initially claimed that up to 2,000 civilians died in South Ossetia on Aug. 7 before Russian troops arrived on the scene. That estimate has since been reduced — by Russia — to 133, which is well short of anyone's definition of a "genocide" that would justify a rapid foreign intervention. Representatives of Human Rights Watch, who visited all four hospitals in the region shortly after the battle, say the organization has proof of only 44 deaths that night.

Yet Georgia's claim that Russia started the war is not completely convincing either. In an interview with TIME, Saakashvili said he ordered his troops to attack the South Ossetian city of Tskhinvali only after Russia launched its invasion into Georgian territory; his professed aim was to slow Russia's advance by 48 hours in order to give the international community time to act. But on the night of Aug. 7, and for three to four days afterward, Georgian officials did not say that Russia had launched its invasion first but only that their forces were responding to stepped-up attacks by 120-mm mortars from Russian-backed South Ossetian forces on Georgian positions.

There may be a kernel of truth to both sides. Saakashvili may have thought that his forces could stamp out the South Ossetian defense force in one swift strike without provoking a Russian response; indeed, a mistaken belief that Western allies could intervene diplomatically to restrain Russia might have encouraged him in that calculation. For its part, Russia could well have sought to provoke Georgia into such a response (by urging the South Ossetians to step up attacks on Georgian positions) in order to provide them with a pretext to invade.

"Georgia miscalculated, but so did we all," one Western diplomat in the region said. None of this speaks to the overwhelming force that Russia used after it launched its invasion and the deliberate flouting of international opinion that Moscow has displayed since.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1838305,00.html#ixzz0fYRWNvSo

Summary: Russia had been preparing an invasion for months, encouraged attacks from its proxies in South Ossetia to bait the Georgians into responding and used the relatively minor Georgian attack on said proxies as a pretext for its invasion.

[Berzerker]

preparing dont mean intending, we prepare for all sorts of stuff. C'mon Drake, even that article aint clear about what happened. But if Georgia claims the right to secede from that union, its hypocritical for them to pressure these 2 provinces. If that did happen and it led to war, I wont shed any tears for Georgia.

[Dr Strangelove]

well, you didn't answer my question so...

Q. What are Georgia and Russia fighting over?

A: Georgia launched a military strike on the province of South Ossetia, aiming to reclaim it after 16 years of semi-independence. In response, Russia sent tanks in. Moscow says Georgian forces had killed Russian peacekeepers there and were committing acts of "ethnic cleansing" of native Russians living there.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-08-08-question-answer_N.htm

That was my understanding of events, so **** off Drake. Save your BS for someone within arms reach.

And that's pretty much what independent investigation has come up with as well.
Right now both South Ossetia and Abkhasia are prety well garrisoned with Russian forces. Furthermore I haven't heard of any massive arming of Georgia by the US. The US sent lots of aid to Georgia in the aftermath, but relatively little of it was military because, for one, the Russians occupied Georgia's main port, for the other, the rest of NATO asked Washington to limit its involvement.

In the early 1990s independent Georgis's first President employed a nationalist para-military gang to help support his government. The Mihedrioni soon outnumbered the Georgian police and army and began bleeding the country dry, displaying particular cruelty towards non-Georgians. The Ossetians and Abkhasi revolted. At one point a high Georgian officer publicly promised to ensure that the rebels would be prevented from continuing their breed on the Earth by exterminating their children.

Given the chronic bad blood beween the Georgians and these groups and the fact that the matter was relatively stable for 16 years I'm not very sympathetic with the Georgians complaints. I think that Abkhasia and South Ossetia should at most be accountable for the property losses of the Georgians who lived in those areas prior to 1991. I think it would be just if the South Ossetians gave back the south-eastern corner of their province and if Abkhasia gave back the southern third of theirs, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Drake Tungsten]

preparing dont mean intending, we prepare for all sorts of stuff.

Jesus Christ...

I guarantee you'd be using a little more of your limited critical thinking skills if pro-American rebels launched attacks in Cuba and the U.S. invaded less than 24 hours after the Cubans started their reprisals.

[Berzerker]

what a mess

[Dr Strangelove]

Summary: Russia had been preparing an invasion for months, encouraged attacks from its proxies in South Ossetia to bait the Georgians into responding and used the relatively minor Georgian attack on said proxies as a pretext for its invasion.

Summary: Russia has kept massive forces on the ready status in the the cis-Caucasus area for freakin' decades and it hasn't been a secret. There were and are several corps deployed withjin a few hours drive of Roki tunnel.

There have been several instances in which Georgia has accussed Ossetians or Abkhasains of launching attacks, firing mortars in areas patrolled by non-Russian monitors and the monitors were unable to verify the attacks. If the Ossetians had been conducting nerarly daily fire missions against Georgia there should have been casualties or at least pictures of damaged structures, but there weren't. Conclusion: the provocation claimed by the Georgians must have been considerable less than reporeted.

[Drake Tungsten]

Russia has kept massive forces on the ready status in the the cis-Caucasus area for freakin' decades and it hasn't been a secret.

Russia began an abnormal buildup of military forces on the border with South Ossetia in the spring of 2008. For you to try to portray it as the usual state of affairs is disingenuous at best.

[Berzerker]

preparing dont mean intending, we prepare for all sorts of stuff.

Jesus Christ...

I guarantee you'd be using a little more of your limited critical thinking skills if pro-American rebels launched attacks in Cuba and the U.S. invaded less than 24 hours after the Cubans started their reprisals.

The only attacks I see were launched by the Georgians and Russians. And yes, Drake, preparation /= intent. We dont intend to nuke Russia, but we're prepared for it. If hostilities are on the rise near my border, I'd prepare for a possible war.

[Drake Tungsten]

The only attacks I see were launched by the Georgians and Russians.

You obviously didn't read the Time article I quoted to, then. How can you be expected to discuss this intelligently when you don't even know the basic facts?

edit: Here's a fair examination of who bears the responsibility for the 2008 South Ossetia War.

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files/12445_84_6allison.pdf

[Perfection]

won't work, noone gives a crap about the winter olympics

[Berzerker]

I read it, and all I saw was Georgia's claim of mortar attacks on them. They said that was why they invaded, then changed their story. Thats convincing... So where's Georgia's evidence of these attacks? Sounds to me like Georgia was run by thugs, but I'm reading the Doc's articles. He knows more about it than me...

[Drake Tungsten]

He knows more about it than me...

No, he really doesn't. He's just more comfortable with bull****ting than you are.