Scientology has every right to be considered a legitimate religion

[Ming]

This conversation is worthless until you own up to the atrocities of the RCC through the ages. You keep saying Scientology is not a religion because of all their evil and controling ways, yet it will take many years for them to catch up to all the evil and controling things the RCC has done. You just can't ignore history. Many religions have real dubious pasts... but most would still consider them "real" religions.

So if you are going to hold their actions against them, be consistent and admit that maybe the RCC shouldn't be considered a religion either

[Asher]

This conversation is worthless until you educate yourself on how Scientology actually works. "Convert's zeal" has nothing to do with it. Gaymarriagegaymarriagegaymarriage!

What does it do that is so bad?

Solicits money both overtly and subtly from their followers? RCC does that.
Has rules controlling access to health care? RCC does that.
Has been involved in illegal activities? Yep, RCC too.
Has rules controlling personal aspects of someone's life (choice in partner, etc)? Yep, RCC does that.
Has murdered millions of people? RCC has done that, Scientology not yet...but I'm sure they'd love to try.
Tried to silence and censor people who disagreed with their ridiculous beliefs? Yes, the RCC has done that too.

Time to face facts. The RCC is evil and ridiculous just as Scientology is. Hell, you've got the Vatican issuing 'facts' about how condoms don't help stop HIV. 'Evil' is putting it lightly.

[Asher]

Objectively speaking, short of Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormon church, the RCC is one of the most evil religious organizations on the planet right now. Looking back historically, they're far and away the most evil religion of all.

[C0ckney]

there was a british guy who used to post here (think it was evil kenivel) who was some sort of freelance journalist. he started an investigation into scientology in this country and as a i recall, very soon afterwards started receiving threats by mail, odd phone calls in the middle of night, that kind of thing. it got so bad that he felt he had to stop writing the piece he was working on.

i'll try to find the thread, it was a very interesting insight into how these people work.

[onodera]

Ming, what you are saying is basically, "it is acceptable for Islamic fanatics to declare a holy war on the Christian world in the 21st century because Christian fanatics declared a holy war on the Islamic world in the 11th century". No it's not, because a thousand years back is not now.
Yes, the RCC has done a lot of despicable things in the past, but this doesn't mean we should not call it a religion. It is one, has been for more than a thousand years, and it's a bit hard to reverse that, don't you think? The fact that we do call it a religion should not prevent us from labelling Scientology a scam and a cult.

Moreover, using the evil controlling ways doesn't make something a religion or a cult. A modern monotheistic (unlike older polytheistic religions that are derived from observing the forces of nature) religion is founded by a bat**** insane person. Scientology was founded by a completely sane person, and it is as much a religion as Herbalife. But even that is not a definition of religion.

What separates a religion from a cult or a sect is the level of public acceptance. A bat**** insane sone of a carpenter started a Judaistic sect, and it took some time for it to grow into a full-fledged religion. In the olden times, when there was no separation of church and state, the distinction was clearer. Your cult is a religion if your state or at least some other state endorses it. If it's not, you either try to take power (Islam), move to a place where there's no state (LDS), or go underground until the level of mainstream acceptance is high enough so you become a candidate for the state religion (Christianity).
Now, when the state cannot endorse a specific religion, this all becomes a bit blurry, that's why we get Wiccans, Scientologists, Bahai (what the hell is this one anyway? the only place I've ever heard of them is their own Wikipedia page) and other cults declaring themselves religions. With no explicit endorsement or at least tolerance (Russian Empire was officially Orthodox, but acknowledged the existence of Catholics, Lutherans, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and primitive pagans) by the state you can't tell what sect or cult is a full-fledged religion.

Therefore, I propose the level of public acceptance as an indicator whether a cult or a sect is a religion. Simple majority should be enough.

[SlowwHand]

No. Just because I don't like pumpkin pie doesn't mean it's not a pie.

[Asher]

Ming, what you are saying is basically, "it is acceptable for Islamic fanatics to declare a holy war on the Christian world in the 21st century because Christian fanatics declared a holy war on the Islamic world in the 11th century".

WTF? No, I'm pretty sure he's not.

What he's saying is the RCC has done plenty of evil things and believes in lots of very silly things just like the church of Scientology.

Yes, the RCC has done a lot of despicable things in the past, but this doesn't mean we should not call it a religion. It is one, has been for more than a thousand years, and it's a bit hard to reverse that, don't you think? The fact that we do call it a religion should not prevent us from labelling Scientology a scam and a cult.

This is ridiculously harebrained logic.

Ming is not saying the RCC is not a religion. It is. So is Scientology. By definition...

a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"

or

religion (plural religions)
- A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued or sacred.
- Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.
- Any ongoing practice one engages in, in order to shape their character or improve traits of their personality.
- Ideological and traditional heritage.

A lot of Christians are uncomfortable in it being labeled a religion because it looks so ridiculous and evil to them. It may be news to them, but the RCC and other Christian churches look ridiculous and evil to others. These people need a reality check, one I am happy to provide.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You'll note born again Christians (eg, Ben) are the whackiest.

*cough*

Don't paint with such a broad brush...

[Asher]

It's a well-established generalization. There will always be exceptions.

[Elok]

This conversation is worthless until you own up to the atrocities of the RCC through the ages. You keep saying Scientology is not a religion because of all their evil and controling ways, yet it will take many years for them to catch up to all the evil and controling things the RCC has done. You just can't ignore history. Many religions have real dubious pasts... but most would still consider them "real" religions.

So if you are going to hold their actions against them, be consistent and admit that maybe the RCC shouldn't be considered a religion either

No, of course the RCC has done terrible things. I regard them as the inevitable consequence of any person or organization, religious or secular, acquiring too much unrestrained power. If Richard Dawkins were somehow given basically absolute power over England, France, Germany, Italy and several surrounding regions for centuries, he would do precisely the same things for political advantage, same as the Pope, only to different people for different ostensible reasons. In any case, it was A LONG TIME AGO. The same English government we have now used to engage in rampant state-sponsored piracy, torture and execution for petty theft, but nobody's stupid enough to equate them with Iran or anything.

I'm talking about religions as they are now. I never said they can't mend (or get worse). Mormonism was about as bad as the CoS when they started, but in just over a century they've mellowed considerably to the point where their members can function quite well in society; indeed, they're generally more law-abiding than average. Right now the Catholic church is guilty only of exercising its legal right to lobby against things it doesn't like--and recently of trying to cover up a rash of pederasty to save face. Not nice, not nice at all, and I certainly don't condone the cover-up, but generally speaking, they behave themselves, and the scandal pales by comparison to the massive criminal behavior of Scientology today. Perhaps in the future they'll mellow out, quit brainwashing, extortion, barratry and all the rest, and at that point they'll be just another religion as far as I'm concerned. More likely they'll continue following the obsolete instructions of the pill-popping sociopath who used to lead them, and eventually wither away into nothing. Good riddance if so.

As for the incident with Galileo, Asher, that was an absurdity. Galileo wasn't even contradicting church doctrine, only going against Aristotle and Ptolemy. And the Pope was pretty tolerant until Mr. Galilei was stupid enough to publicly mock him--in writing, no less. Then he got ornery and made him take it back under threat of torture. The lesson to be learned from that is, "don't insult despots, at least not while living in their country." But yes, the despot in question was the Pope. For whatever that's worth.

[Boris Godunov]

Right now the Catholic church is guilty only of exercising its legal right to lobby against things it doesn't like--and recently of trying to cover up a rash of pederasty to save face.

If that's all you think the current RCC is guilty of, you're woefully ignorant.

For starters, they've spread misery and death in Africa by lying about condoms and practiced extortion by making aid to African countries conditional on following their tenets.

And then there's Rwanda, Africa's most Catholic country... how many bishops, priests and nuns went on trial for encouraging genocide?

http://www.afrol.com/Countries/Rwanda/backgr_cross_genocide.htm

[Asher]

No, of course the RCC has done terrible things. I regard them as the inevitable consequence of any person or organization, religious or secular, acquiring too much unrestrained power.

Elok -- frankly, you are tarnishing your reputation in this thread. You are finding every available excuse for past Catholic evils no matter how nonsensical they are. "But that was the past!" or "But that's human nature, not catholicism!". Come on.

It is patently ridiculous. You refuse to afford scientologists any excuses but you find millions for the RCC.

The fact is, the RCC has been and STILL IS a tremendous evil in the world (see Boris' post for current examples). So is Scientology.

They're both religions, they're both evil. You just happen to be a Catholic, so of course you think because you're not an evil person it's not possible for the RCC to be evil. Wake up.

[Nikolai]

I see no problems with making fun of Scientology. As I see no problems with making fun of more established religions. I don't like Scientology, but I have all the respect for Scientologists, it's their beliefs, and they should be respected. Respect does not mean one should not joke about it though.

[Wezil]

I don't like Scientology, but I have all the respect for Scientologists, it's their beliefs, and they should be respected.

BS.

Do you respect holocaust deniers?

[Nikolai]

It's not a faith. We're talking religion here Wezil, keep up.