Was God the greatest casualty?

[Guynemer]

A tsunami forces people to reflect on what their purpose on Earth is, and focus more on spiritual betterment than physical wellbeing.

Well, it forces the people who survive to reflect on their purpose. Not so much the people who died. But **** them anyway, they were probably worthless brown people.

[Drake Tungsten]

Cardiff is the Detroit of Europe.

[Kidlicious]

What Kidicious said is how the question of evil is traditionally answered. God lets bad things happen because they shake humanity up, and make us better people as a consequence of hardship. If you've ever met a spoiled rich brat, you'll know that having an easy time of life doesn't make people better human beings. A tsunami forces people to reflect on what their purpose on Earth is, and focus more on spiritual betterment than physical wellbeing.

[Cort Haus]

What Kidicious said is how the question of evil is traditionally answered. God lets bad things happen because they shake humanity up, and make us better people as a consequence of hardship. If you've ever met a spoiled rich brat, you'll know that having an easy time of life doesn't make people better human beings. A tsunami forces people to reflect on what their purpose on Earth is, and focus more on spiritual betterment than physical wellbeing.

Jesus ****ing wept, to coin a phrase.

If this is what religion does to a man's brain, Praise the Lord he made me an atheist.

I mean really. Just think about it for five seconds. Thousands of people die and suffer terribly, just so the remainder can enjoy the benefits of some valuable soul-searching. Presumably your take on the Holocaust follows similar lines.

[Kidlicious]

The Holocaust was caused by a man.

[Felch]

Jesus ****ing wept, to coin a phrase.

If this is what religion does to a man's brain, Praise the Lord he made me an atheist.

I mean really. Just think about it for five seconds. Thousands of people die and suffer terribly, just so the remainder can enjoy the benefits of some valuable soul-searching. Presumably your take on the Holocaust follows similar lines.

You're assuming that life on this earth is all there is. Given that Christianity promises eternal life after this, it's not such a big deal to die in a natural disaster. Frankly this is one aspect of religion that comforts believers and causes no harm whatsoever to atheists. Why does it bother you so much? I can understand being bothered by religious violence, or bigotry. But this makes you come across as an ass.

Do you seriously blame something you don't believe in for plate tectonics?

[Guynemer]

Cardiff is the Detroit of Europe.

0.1/10. Better than your last effort.

Anyway, I thought Sarajevo was the Detroit of Europe.

[Drake Tungsten]

Anyway, I thought Sarajevo was the Detroit of Europe.

Sarajevo at least has hope for the future.

[Cort Haus]

You're assuming that life on this earth is all there is. Given that Christianity promises eternal life after this, it's not such a big deal to die in a natural disaster.

No. it isn't 'given'. You are the one making fantastical and unsubstantiated assumptions. Yet still your take on this happily ignores the pain of the bereaved and the indirect economic suffering. My point stands - presumably the Holocaust is also a cause for joy at the spiritual benefits it bestows upon us all.

Frankly this is one aspect of religion that comforts believers and causes no harm whatsoever to atheists. Why does it bother you so much? I can understand being bothered by religious violence, or bigotry. But this makes you come across as an ass.

I'm not suggesting it causes harm, other than the disappointment at the madness of fellow humans, so it doesn't 'bother' me beyond wondering how a mass human tragedy can be interpreted as a cause for celebration.

Do you seriously blame something you don't believe in for plate tectonics?

No. Where the **** did you get that idea from?

[Cort Haus]

The Holocaust was caused by a man.

Men, actually, but from the omnipotent-and-just-god angle, it doesn't matter whether it is geo-physics or a political agency that causes a human disaster, the hypothetical-supreme-being gives the nod - according to believers.

I didn't realise you had this theistic-al thing going on, Kid, but it partly explains why you're such a lousy 'communist'. I think I'll nip up the road to pay a visit to Marx's grave in Highgate Cemetery tomorrow, kneel down in front of his grave and offer a prayer for you.

[Felch]

No. it isn't 'given'. You are the one making fantastical and unsubstantiated assumptions. Yet still your take on this happily ignores the pain of the bereaved and the indirect economic suffering. My point stands - presumably the Holocaust is also a cause for joy at the spiritual benefits it bestows upon us all.

It is a given with being Christian. It's part and parcel with the ****ing religion. You want to bash on God for letting bad things happen, but you ignore the eternal salvation part of the equation.

Ignoring other religions, either God exists, and there is an afterlife, or God doesn't exist and there isn't one. If there's an afterlife then natural disasters are no big deal. If there's no afterlife, because there's no God, then natural disasters suck, but they're no one's fault.

I'm not suggesting it causes harm, other than the disappointment at the madness of fellow humans, so it doesn't 'bother' me beyond wondering how a mass human tragedy can be interpreted as a cause for celebration.

No one treats it as a cause for celebration. Nobody said it was a cause for celebration. What I said was that it is a way of shaking people out of their self-centered ruts.

No. Where the **** did you get that idea from?

I was poking fun at you.

If God doesn't exist, then it's irrelevant. Something that doesn't exist isn't at fault for earthquakes or the tsunamis they cause. If God does exist, then the question of evil needs an answer. I gave you the textbook answer and you missed the point completely.

[Felch]

Men, actually, but from the omnipotent-and-just-god angle, it doesn't matter whether it is geo-physics or a political agency that causes a human disaster, the hypothetical-supreme-being gives the nod - according to believers.

Different religions have different teachings on this. Calvinism and Sunni Islam teach that God is omnipotent and decides our actions ahead of time. In other words, they reject free will. Being Catholic, I recognize free will as a fundamental part of what makes human beings special. We have the power to do good or evil, without involvement from God.

In other words, I'm not persuaded by your argument, because you don't know what I actually believe in. You're attacking childish straw man notions of the divine.

[Cort Haus]

It is a given with being Christian. It's part and parcel with the ****ing religion. You want to bash on God for letting bad things happen, but you ignore the eternal salvation part of the equation.

No, I'm not bashing god for letting bad things happen, because IMV there is no god. Full stop. **** happens. The whole 'eternal salvation' fluff is just a delusional irrelevance.

Ignoring other religions, either God exists, and there is an afterlife, or God doesn't exist and there isn't one. If there's an afterlife then natural disasters are no big deal. If there's no afterlife, because there's no God, then natural disasters suck, but they're no one's fault.

"natural disasters suck, but they're no one's fault" - there, you said it. Tragic, but not metaphysical.

No one treats it as a cause for celebration. Nobody said it was a cause for celebration. What I said was that it is a way of shaking people out of their self-centered ruts.

So not celebration, you say, but still positive. I'd argue that people are quite capable of being horrified by a tsunami, a holocaust, or a WW1 trench-warfare massacre nightmare without needing religion to prompt them. The original argument was that god has these things happen because of what we can learn, and how we can react. I'm arguing that there is no sense in letting these things happen for such reasons, as the suffering is far too much. If the best way god has is to allow hundreds of thousands to die, just to shake things up then, well .. there's something seriously wrong somewhere.

If God doesn't exist, then it's irrelevant. Something that doesn't exist isn't at fault for earthquakes or the tsunamis they cause. If God does exist, then the question of evil needs an answer. I gave you the textbook answer and you missed the point completely.

Textbook? Not a textbook that is recognised outside of the specific belief-system in question. You'd be right if you'd restricted it to the bit where you said "Something that doesn't exist isn't at fault for earthquakes or the tsunamis they cause".

[Imran Siddiqui]

I believe this conversation is distilling down to, as Felch put it:

But this makes you come across as an ass.

[Cort Haus]

With the greatest of respect, Imran....

**** off.