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  • Afghan withdrawl strategy

    The news is full of reports about how badly NATO is doing in Afghanistan. It seems as though we've built a lovely military machine for stomping the **** out of Russians in Germany, but it's unprepared for nation building in Afghanistan. So now the talk is of sending tens of thousands more troops (which may not even help matters) or of tucking our tail between our legs and slinking away.

    One idea I haven't heard proposed is to leave, and burn everything behind us.

    I know that this is probably because our defense strategy is decided by a bunch of people who worry about human rights and other nonsense. To them, the idea of torching farms and villages out of spite is inhumane. It's a "war crime" and we're better than that. To me, it's a winning strategy that the United States has used on many occasions. To me, the only crime in war is losing*.

    A hundred and fifty years ago, native tribes like the Comanche and Sioux posed a real threat to Americans on the frontier. Decades of brutal warfare later, and now they just run casinos and live in poverty. In order to win we pulled out all the stops. We attacked their economy by slaughtering buffalo for sport. We attacked their civilians at places like Wounded Knee. We hunted them like animals, until they submitted to our will. Some might look back on that with regret, but most people accept it as the moral price we paid to be a great nation.

    In Afghanistan we run the risks of either quagmire or defeat. Why not just recast our whole campaign as a carrot and stick approach? We offered them schools and wells and other benefits of development. We gave the Afghan people a chance to live like civilized human beings. But they chose the retrograde medieval fanaticism of the Taliban and the parasitic corruption of the Karzai clan instead. We can't change their minds, but we can certainly make them pay for their ingratitude.

    The West should withdraw. We have no stake in Afghanistan economically or strategically. We should pull out gradually, and burn everything that we leave behind. The Taliban isn't able to contest us in conventional warfare (although they are getting better at it). They won't be able to stop us from destroying villages and burning food supplies. And it will be very difficult for them to persuade people that they won when they're boiling their shoes for soup.

    Does anyone have a better idea?

    *Seriously, look at how the post-WWII war crimes tribunals worked. America waged unrestricted submarine warfare in the Pacific, the UK and US firebombed cities in Germany and Japan, and the Soviets massacred Polish POWs at Katyn. None of the victors had to answer for these crimes.
    John Brown did nothing wrong.

  • #2
    Where would the heroin addicts get their stash?
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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    • #3
      Here I was thinking the strategy was to set up a stable country who would be able to police itself and be an ally in the fight against terrorism (and other countries in that region).

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      • #4
        Welcome to 2009. It's only been going on for ten and a half months, but you're welcome to enjoy these last few weeks.
        John Brown did nothing wrong.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Space05us View Post
          Here I was thinking the strategy was to set up a stable country who would be able to police itself and be an ally in the fight against terrorism (and other countries in that region).
          That would be the mature goal, as contrasted by the juvenile goal of burning everything behind us (something that may get plenty of folks willing to have another country come over and "nation build" the US since apparently we are unable to do it ourselves). Hey, why not commit an atrocity far worse than 9/11...
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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          • #6
            Why not indeed. The Japanese killed a couple thousand at Pearl Harbor and we nuked two of their cities.

            Proportionality has no place in war. The Afghan people wanted to play host to Osama bin Laden, that's their decision. But their decision has consequences.
            John Brown did nothing wrong.

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            • #7
              Would anyone care to outline a strategy "to set up a stable country who would be able to police itself and be an ally in the fight against terrorism"?

              So far our leaders are grasping at straws, unable to accomplish that goal after eight years. If it's so easy, why hasn't it magically happened yet?

              I postulate that the Afghan people are at fault. Make an example of them, and in the future people will think twice before hosting our enemies.
              John Brown did nothing wrong.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Felch View Post
                Why not indeed. The Japanese killed a couple thousand at Pearl Harbor and we nuked two of their cities.
                There was this whole total war thing. If you think the only thing the Japanese did was kill a "couple thousand at Pearl Harbor" you need to revisit your history books.
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Felch View Post
                  I postulate that the Afghan people are at fault. Make an example of them, and in the future people will think twice before hosting our enemies.
                  Or it'll just cause more resentment, lose us all of our allies and moral supremacy, and nuclear bombs will be the next thing to be detonated in the US.
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Felch View Post
                    It seems as though we've built a lovely military machine for stomping the **** out of Russians in Germany,
                    NATO could never have "stomped the **** out of Russians in Germany". NATO's only choice was to use nuclear weapons to stop a Soviet assault. We knew that, they knew that, and they knew that we knew. Knowing that we were backed into that corner and that the French, independently of any NATO weak-knees, were willing (maybe more than willing ) to nuke Germany to defend France from a Russian invasion deterred any direct Soviet aggression against the west.

                    Fun times.
                    We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
                    If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
                    Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

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                    • #11
                      I know they did more than that. What's your point? My point is that our response was not proportionate. Proportionality is silly.

                      Let's say your sister is being beaten on by her boyfriend. Do you talk it over, do you punch him once, or do you break his bones with a baseball bat? I'm all in favor of excess brutality, using such force that he would never dream of breaking bad again. I'm not trying to give my opponent a chance, and I have no interest in fair fights.

                      The Taliban is an evil organization. They seek to oppress women and murder anyone who gets in their way. The Afghan people are worthless allies, either because they distrust our commitment and want to hedge their bets, or because they are corrupt leeching scum. Either way, the policy of building a stable society in Afghanistan has been a tremendous waste. The rational choice now is to withdraw, but that gives victory to the Taliban.

                      I am against a Taliban victory, just as I am against propping up a corrupt regime. Why not just burn everything and leave? Those who betrayed our trust can fend for themselves, while those who opposed our will can starve and freeze to death.
                      John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                      • #12
                        We could act like children and become just as much pariahs in the international community as Saddam Hussein was. That sure worked out for him .
                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
                          Or it'll just cause more resentment, lose us all of our allies and moral supremacy, and nuclear bombs will be the next thing to be detonated in the US.
                          I've heard all this before. Our allies are already abandoning us. Our moral supremacy is worthless when our opponents think we're Satan's legions. And if they had nukes they'd already use them.

                          You're assuming our enemies aren't at war with us. They are. It's about time we joined the fight.

                          Spencer, whether we'd win against Russia is irrelevant. What matters is that NATO wasn't meant to fight COIN in Afghanistan.
                          John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                          • #14
                            Our allies are already abandoning us? Have you seen the US approval ratings since Obama got into office? Just because we were a bunch of morons under W. Bush doesn't mean we've been abandoned.

                            I don't think being considered more evil than China is the way to go.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                            • #15
                              Thats true, I was just pointing out the error.
                              We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
                              If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
                              Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

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