Rendition... but no torture?

[Arrian]

Thankfully, Israel doesn't do the very things the Palestinians are doing

True.

It needs to be said... "torture".

It really is sickening how many Americans agree with you. Do you sit around beating off to the thought of tough guys having their way with prisoners?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Felch,

I've seen a general trend towards people who just go with the conventional wisdom that the Palestinians are victims of Israeli cruelty.

They are. And Isrealis are victims of Palestinian cruelty. The whole situation is immensely ****ed up. The thing is that Isreal has massive advantages. The Pals are the underdog, and they did honestly get screwed over long ago. People sympathize with that.

-Arrian

[Traianvs]

Israel launched thousands of sorties. They were attacking an area with no real civil defense mechanism and greatly diminished medical resources. Even if they weren't actively trying to kill Palestinians, if they were merely indifferent to the civilians, you would have seen a civilian death toll in the tens of thousands. If they were actively trying to murder Palestinians - well - they've got The Bomb. There's really no limit to the damage Israel can cause. But that's not what they do. They do what they can to fight their enemies and limit collateral damage.

Hamas on the other hand, makes no effort whatsoever to discriminate between soldier and civilian. Yet they're lauded by the international community as "resistance fighters" and their war crimes are excused because they're not a state. It's a double standard, and double standards are not right. A crime is a crime no matter who commits it, and no matter who the victim is.

Have you been reading the news? Hamas was condemned in just about every report, as well as Israel of course. Except for Israel's own report, the international community has stressed and actively lobbied to condemn both parties (cf. UN, Amnesty International, etc). Difference is Israel reacted disproportionately, and however that is open to debate it is fair to say that launching an all-out attack with mortarfire on such a densely populated area is pretty heavy.

Basically, it's just something you don't do, regardless of the intent of targeting civilians. The Gaza blockade and the occupation in general have made the area economically FUBARed anyway, so by launching an attack you're only aggravating the situation.

[Traianvs]

You do realize that according to the document dump by Obama, the program was considered to be an "absolute success" right?

Source?

The question none of the people at the intelligence agencies can answer is how much of that information could've been obtained without the torture.

I also heard that the ACLU was on the verge of releasing a secret CIA-report from 2004 which states that the permitted interrogation techniques were massively abused. More importantly the report appears to be very critical about the results of the interrogations, and that the approach has not prevented any large attacks.

Maybe it has been released now, not sure.

[Felch]

Have you been reading the news? Hamas was condemned in just about every report, as well as Israel of course. Except for Israel's own report, the international community has stressed and actively lobbied to condemn both parties (cf. UN, Amnesty International, etc). Difference is Israel reacted disproportionately, and however that is open to debate it is fair to say that launching an all-out attack with mortarfire on such a densely populated area is pretty heavy.

Basically, it's just something you don't do, regardless of the intent of targeting civilians. The Gaza blockade and the occupation in general have made the area economically FUBARed anyway, so by launching an attack you're only aggravating the situation.

Israel was attacked with indiscriminate rocket fire. They responded, yet showed restraint in terms of the civilian death toll. Their firepower was overwhelming, but it was also carefully targeted. The preponderance of their ordinance was guided, and they gave warning to civilians through leaflets and phone calls. But you say, "it's just something you don't do." Why not?

You're an example of the provincialism of European thought. You apply European solutions, which are appropriate to your own situation, but useless in the face of the psychotic ideology of Hamas. They can't hash out a solution with an enemy that wants to drive them out to the sea. They can't court regional powers who use them as scapegoats. They can't appeal to international or regional authorities because those are packed with enemies. So instead, a country that had its civilian population terrorized by unguided rockets is condemned on equal terms with the people who provoked them.

Soft power is wonderful when it works, but it does nothing to dissuade fanatics.

These are the facts, and I haven't seen any evidence against them:

• Israel makes an effort to reduce civilian casualties
• Hamas makes no effort to reduce civilian casualties

Those two facts are why I reject the equivalent guilt that people impose on Israel.

You might argue that Hamas is incapable of fighting on equal terms with Israel. I agree. That's a reason to avoid conflict, not to provoke it. A party to conflict that has to rely on war crimes to secure victory has no business fighting. The right to resist is not the same thing as the right to fire rockets at population centers.

[Kuciwalker]

It really is sickening how many Americans agree with you. Do you sit around beating off to the thought of tough guys having their way with prisoners?

Don't knock it till you try it

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

True.



It really is sickening how many Americans agree with you.

-Arrian

Why is it surprising given the heroes portrayed in movies and TV?

Revenge is sweet, Hasta La Vista MF etc.

[Arrian]

Why is it surprising given the heroes portrayed in movies and TV?

I said sickening, not surprising.

-Arrian

[Guynemer]

Why is it surprising given the heroes portrayed in movies and TV?

Revenge is sweet, Hasta La Vista MF etc.

You forgot: "DAMN IT! WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?!" [/Jack Bauer's Napoleon Complex]

[Drake Tungsten]

It really is sickening how many Americans agree with you.

Americans are a practical people. If you can save American lives through "torture" that doesn't do any permanent harm to the terrorists being interrogated, support is a no-brainer for most Americans.

[Traianvs]

You might argue that Hamas is incapable of fighting on equal terms with Israel. I agree. That's a reason to avoid conflict, not to provoke it. A party to conflict that has to rely on war crimes to secure victory has no business fighting. The right to resist is not the same thing as the right to fire rockets at population centers.

Let's not take it down that road. The list of war crimes by Israel and Hamas is considerable. Many of those could be described primarily as minor incidents and provocations, unlike the mediatized rocket fire by Hamas. Still it's naive to claim Israel's innocence. We could go a long way debating this, but for me the point still stands that if Hamas renounces suicide attacks and Israel stops expanding its colonial settlements then a sustainable solution is possible.

Unfortunately neither side feels they should make that first move so it won't happen.

PS: the myth about the phone calls and leaflets is a load of bs. There is no strategic advantage whatsoever for the IDF to do that, unless you want to engage in psychological warfare, scaring and intidmidating the population. If your claim is that Hamas soldiers hide amongst the civilians, then why on earth would you alert your foes about your plans anyway. Just doesn't make any sense.

PS2:

• Hamas doesn't care much about casualties. Their rocket fire is a political tool to pressurize Israel. It has little to no military value. Granted it's a stupid thing to do since it further aggravates tensions, but there you go: they're a bunch of hatemongering *******s too as we all know.
• Israel reduces civilian casualties to a certain degree since it disposes of far more powerful means, true. I wouldn't exaggerate it though, like I said there's a number of vile acts by the IDF that just don't compete with the Hamas rockets..

[Sava]

Americans are a practical people.

[Theben]

Americans are a practical people.

The right answer is that you're a troll, but you get a brownie for getting Arrian to bite.

[Felch]

Let's not take it down that road. The list of war crimes by Israel and Hamas is considerable. Many of those could be described primarily as minor incidents and provocations, unlike the mediatized rocket fire by Hamas. Still it's naive to claim Israel's innocence. We could go a long way debating this, but for me the point still stands that if Hamas renounces suicide attacks and Israel stops expanding its colonial settlements then a sustainable solution is possible.

Unfortunately neither side feels they should make that first move so it won't happen.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect. I'm saying they are clearly better than Hamas.

PS: the myth about the phone calls and leaflets is a load of bs. There is no strategic advantage whatsoever for the IDF to do that, unless you want to engage in psychological warfare, scaring and intidmidating the population. If your claim is that Hamas soldiers hide amongst the civilians, then why on earth would you alert your foes about your plans anyway. Just doesn't make any sense.

Of course it's used as intimidation. But it's not a myth. It's simply psychological warfare by means of warning the civilians.

Hamas hiding among civilians is not a "claim." It's a fact.

PS2:

• Hamas doesn't care much about casualties. Their rocket fire is a political tool to pressurize Israel. It has little to no military value. Granted it's a stupid thing to do since it further aggravates tensions, but there you go: they're a bunch of hatemongering *******s too as we all know.
• Israel reduces civilian casualties to a certain degree since it disposes of far more powerful means, true. I wouldn't exaggerate it though, like I said there's a number of vile acts by the IDF that just don't compete with the Hamas rockets..

It's nice to know you agree with me there.

[Drake Tungsten]

The right answer is that you're a troll

Polls support my contention. The majority of Americans support the use of enhanced interrogation techniques.