A Great American Hero

[Patroklos]

I a not the legal officer for a reason it would seem.

[Kuciwalker]

[Drake Tungsten]

Oh, if only I cared what you think.

You'd be a much better poster if you did.

[Kidlicious]

How is a person who murdered several hundred people getting screwed by a two year prison sentance? Even if he were absolutely correct in his unsubstatiated claims of "orders," it is not a mitigating circumstance as far as his culpability is concerned in the slightest.

I do have to agree with this. It doesn't matter if he was given orders or not to me. He should have went to prison for life.

[Blaupanzer]

I already indicated that I thought Calley should have been executed. Such an execution would not have shown up on "page 8," but page one of every newspaper on both sides of the Pacific.

I also noted that I succeeded in controlling fragging (and racial confrontations) in my company despite interference from higher ups. [In my case, I had very senior higher ups in helicopters, jump on my radio subnet all the time to give orders to my NCOs. Despite this, I had them use their best judgement or check with me before complying to any orders other than "duck!" I suspect Calley got the same "support."]

The answer to all your initial questions about discipline is "yes." I agree with you. However, First LTs and Captains don't create those policies and cannot apply them if they are not there.

Again in response to your narrative, I agree that Calley let his people get out of control. This is a hanging offense as far as I'm concerned. But the reality is he knew it wasn't and so did his people. The villagers in that area were known to be very supporting to the VC for years before he got there. That does not excuse anything, but led to he and his folk thinking they would get away with their action. That's a toxic military discipline environment, and one 2nd LT did not create that. As I say he deserved execution, but he was not the only one up his chain of command, and he was alone in the court martial.

"Or in other words you abdicated responsibility for enforcing standards. I understand why you did this, but it is still a gross dereliction of duty on your part. You say the above, yet you then try and whine about declining discipline?

You know how you stop fragging BP (or keep it from happening in the first place)? You hang everyone who has done so in front of the battalion in question at parade, so that everyone knows with certainty that there is no benefit for participating in such murder and that instead of maybe preventing a combat fatality they ensure a noncombat one."

As noted, I maintained discipline despite the toxic environment. I also had no fragging or "shot-in-the-back" incidents duing my tour. MY people didn't go berserk. So what's with the accusations? I'm trying to tell you what the Army did to itself that led to the Calley incident and what its justification for that was. I not asking for your personal forgiveness or accusations

Note you never answered my question about leading inlong-term combat. I'll happily put my leadership skills at that time up against yours anytime you like. Discipline is the key to successful survival and interaction, but it is not an end in itself. All the soldiers I washed out of the war went to the States. I never have cared what became of them after that. If I had reason to believe I could not rely on them, they were gone. I never ran into any of them once I got back. I stayed in the Army for several more years, but got out when I realized they were promoting the people responsible for the mess in the first place. My medals might have helped me get promoted but not help me reform a system that does not believe it's broken.

[Blaupanzer]

Things were really bad at that time. The Americal Division had given the go ahead for the Marines to conduct a full division amphibious assault into an area in I Corps that the Americal had been operating in. The Americal was to be the "anvil" to the Marines' "hammer." However, when the Marines began to push inland the Army unit ambushed the Marines. With only one regiment ashore, the Marines routed the Americal. The Army said they "scampered" to the rear. I missed the "scamper" maneuver in my training.

The Marines were outraged. Nonetheless, the two units operated in adjacent zones and ambush incidents happened again and again. Everyone was happy to see the "stoned warriors" of the Americal go home.

[Kitschum]

martial martial martial martial martial MARTIAL

also, "courts martial" not "court martials"

Ack, Shirley, courts-martial.

[Blaupanzer]

Sorry to see this one end with a whimper.

[SlowwHand]

I already indicated that I thought Calley should have been executed. Such an execution would not have shown up on "page 8," but page one of every newspaper on both sides of the Pacific.

That's absolutely asinine.

[Blaupanzer]

That's absolutely asinine.

Okaaay. Calley made the front pages in VN and in the US which in-theater people called "both sides of the Pacific." If the US had executed Calley, don't you think that would have been big news? Not trying to be obdurate here.

[Wezil]

Good word.