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[seriously serious sirius XM radio] IP reform thread

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  • [seriously serious sirius XM radio] IP reform thread

    Let's see if we can't keep the aggressive displays of ignorance to a minimum in this thread, please. If the discussion seems over your head then don't be afraid to ask what people mean, but do be afraid to state your obviously underinformed opinion as a matter of fact.

    The basic premise behind granting intellectual property rights is without these rights there would be severe underinvestment in new ideas. The rights give the originator of the new idea the ability to appropriate some fraction of the benefits that his idea confers on society at large. Patent and copyright laws give the originator the exclusive rights to the use of his idea for a fixed period of time, along with the right to sell or license these rights in whatever way he sees fit, secure in the knowledge that the State will intervene to a reasonable extent to safeguard these rights. Most of the first world has IP laws based broadly on this model.

    The only alternative mechanism (alternative to the granting of some sort of IP rights) I can see which is available to the State to push toward the socially optimal level of idea generation is for it to fund and direct research itself, which most first world governments also do to a greater or lesser extent.

    Naively, all seems well and good. However, there is reason to believe that both of these mechanisms (at least as currently practiced) are FAR from ideal.

    In the case of direct State-funded research, as I've stated multiple times recently, it appears that much of the research is "wasted" in order to satisfy the intellectual curiousity of a very few (the LHC), or on projects which capture public imagination (the Apollo Program) or on some combination of the two. Even more applied projects which are gov't sponsored appear to sprawl outwards. I know from personal experience how easy it is to escape the original parameters of research grants while continuing to draw from their funding.

    In the case of IP laws, as currently practiced, there are ENORMOUS deadweight losses involved. The basic problem is that the granting of an IP monopoly drives the price of a protected product far above the marginal cost of production (which is where the price of unprotected products is assumed to lie in the absence of transactional frictions and with a few other simplifying assumptions). The IP monopolist restricts production and raises the price in order to maximize his profit, and in so doing he denies the use of his product to all those for whom the marginal utility of the product is between the marginal cost of production and the profit-maximizing price he sets. This is where the deadweight loss comes from. Note that a monopolist with perfect price-discriminating power does NOT cause such a deadweight loss; he charges everybody a different price based on the marginal utility (to that individual) of his product all the way down to people for whom the marginal utility is the marginal cost of production. This omniscient & omnipotent monopolist thus manages to appropriate the full social value of his idea (modulo the benefit which flows to owners of complementary ideas?). Without any price discrimination powers the worst deadweight losses show up when an idea is very expensive to generate, but the marginal cost of production of products using this idea is very low. Some of the worst examples of this are pharmaceuticals and Hollywood films. It can cost hundreds (?) of millions of dollars to invent a new drug or to produce a blockbuster movie with A list actors, special effects, good cinematography etc. but the marginal cost of production can be just a few cents for both of these examples.

    One of the ideas that gets floated to deal with this deadweight loss problem is that of a patent buyout; the government buys the patent (copyright?) rights off of the inventor and allows free use of the idea by all.

    Here's an example of a proposed mechanism for price setting (hilariously, it's protected unless you're at a university or similar institution)

    Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals.


    Further thoughts, papers etc.?
    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
    Stadtluft Macht Frei
    Killing it is the new killing it
    Ultima Ratio Regum

  • #2
    One of the things to note is that idea holders DO to some extent practice price discrimination. "Freemium" (sharewarish licenses), the donation/discounting of pharmaceuticals and movies/books in less wealthy countries etc.

    None of these mechanisms even close to approaches perfect price discrimination. In country deadweight losses are still large.

    Also, the legal costs of making sure your research doesn't infringe on previously patented ideas are NOT negligible...
    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
    Stadtluft Macht Frei
    Killing it is the new killing it
    Ultima Ratio Regum

    Comment


    • #3
      You've set the parameters too high for discussion on Poly. May as well just PM DanS back and forth.
      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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      • #4
        Is the only place you see your "dead weight" loss in high capital costs low marginal cost paradigms?
        Monkey!!!

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        • #5
          Can you explain where you would see other problems? I'm hoping to learn in addition to expound.
          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
          Stadtluft Macht Frei
          Killing it is the new killing it
          Ultima Ratio Regum

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Japher View Post
            Is the only place you see your "dead weight" loss in high capital costs low marginal cost paradigms?
            Not necessarily. Any monopolist charging a higher price than supply & demand would dictate is creating a dead weight loss of some manner or another.

            edit: I realize I may be misreading you and you are referring specifically to the enormous dead weight loss that KH referred to. And you are referring to that level of dead weight loss rather than dead weight loss as a whole.
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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            • #7
              Would that not then open up competition from substitutions/alternatives? Despite not being as perfect? I.e. Ipod vs. other mp3 players.
              Monkey!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                As a slight change to the current practice, have the government use some of the R&D budget and buyout patents. Then make the patent usable by many at a reasonable fee.

                This would be subsidizing research, as it is now. There would be overhead too. It would just be an alternate way to subsidize applied research then the current grants and government labs approach (actually the other main area I was considering was a government applied lab).

                JM
                Jon Miller-
                I AM.CANADIAN
                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I should also say, in case it wasn't obvious, that in addition to the deadweight loss problem there is reason to believe that the social value of new ideas (at least in the case of patents) is actually a large multiple of the value currently appropriated by IP holders. Due to this one would assume that there is a significant underinvestment in new ideas, relative to what would be socially optimal.
                  12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                  Stadtluft Macht Frei
                  Killing it is the new killing it
                  Ultima Ratio Regum

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Then make the patent usable by many at a reasonable fee


                    NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

                    The whole point is that the idea itself would become FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE

                    Any time you charge a fee to use something which basically has 0 cost to replicate there is a deadweight loss. The gov't eats the cost because it's providing a PUBLIC GOOD!!!
                    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                    Stadtluft Macht Frei
                    Killing it is the new killing it
                    Ultima Ratio Regum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Japher View Post
                      Would that not then open up competition from substitutions/alternatives? Despite not being as perfect? I.e. Ipod vs. other mp3 players.
                      ???

                      Could you explain what you mean here?
                      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                      Stadtluft Macht Frei
                      Killing it is the new killing it
                      Ultima Ratio Regum

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The point is that an IP holder is protected from competition, and competition is what drives the price down to the marginal cost of production.

                        We protect the IP holder from competition in order to allow idea generators a chance to capture some of the social benefit their ideas provide (and thus encourage the development of future ideas)
                        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                        Stadtluft Macht Frei
                        Killing it is the new killing it
                        Ultima Ratio Regum

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post
                          As a slight change to the current practice, have the government use some of the R&D budget and buyout patents. Then make the patent usable by many at a reasonable fee.

                          This would be subsidizing research, as it is now. There would be overhead too. It would just be an alternate way to subsidize applied research then the current grants and government labs approach (actually the other main area I was considering was a government applied lab).

                          JM
                          By the way, this is my preferred option (modulo the fact that patents would be usable for FREE; see my post above)

                          And there shouldn't be a fixed amount of money available. When more and better ideas are generated there should be more money to buy them.

                          I seriously have a hard time thinking of a better use of government money than this.
                          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                          Stadtluft Macht Frei
                          Killing it is the new killing it
                          Ultima Ratio Regum

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ???

                            Could you explain what you mean here?
                            If a monopoly holder charges too much than the consumer who does not meet the utility level to buy that item may likely buy a substitute item. Had the monopoly holder priced appropriately than they would have sold to that consumer. Think of when satellite companies started competing with cable, it may have taken some of cable's customers but it also caused cable to reduce costs which grabbed some non-cable users. Had satellite priced appropriately or better it may have captured even more users.
                            Monkey!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Japher View Post
                              Would that not then open up competition from substitutions/alternatives? Despite not being as perfect? I.e. Ipod vs. other mp3 players.
                              Even reverse engineering and a slightly different type of product takes time. Regardless, the patent holder usually has a bunch of time to profit as other competitors try to figure out a different way of doing it. Also, that doesn't eliminate the scores of patent litigation that would occur if something is relatively similar.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                              Comment

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