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"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K."

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  • "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K."



    How House Bill Runs Over Grandma
    Rationing: In the recesses of the House health care "reform" bill is a provision for end-of-life counseling for seniors. Don't worry, granny, they're from the government and they're here to help.

    At a town hall meeting at AARP headquarters in Washington, D.C., President Obama was asked by a woman from North Carolina if it was true "that everyone that's Medicare age will be visited and told they have to decide how they wish to die."

    At first, the president joked that not enough government workers existed to ask the elderly how they wanted to die. The idea, he said, was to encourage the use of living wills and that critics were misrepresenting the intent of the "end of life" counseling provided for in the House bill. He did not say, "No, they wouldn't be contacted."

    This administration, pledging to cut medical costs and for which "cost-effectiveness" is a new mantra, knows that a quarter of Medicare spending is made in a patient's final year of life. Certainly the British were aware when they nationalized their medical system.

    The controlling of medical costs in countries such as Britain through rationing, and the health consequences thereof are legendary. The stories of people dying on a waiting list or being denied altogether read like a horror movie script.

    The U.K.'s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) basically figures out who deserves treatment by using a cost-utility analysis based on the "quality adjusted life year."

    One year in perfect health gets you one point. Deductions are taken for blindness, for being in a wheelchair and so on.

    The more points you have, the more your life is considered worth saving, and the likelier you are to get care.

    People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

    The British are praised for spending half as much per capita on medical care. How they do it is another matter. The NICE people say that Britain cannot afford to spend $20,000 to extend a life by six months. So if care will cost $1 more, you get to curl up in a corner and die.

    In March, NICE ruled against the use of two drugs, Lapatinib and Sutent, that prolong the life of those with certain forms of breast and stomach cancer.

    The British have succeeded in putting a price tag on human life, as we are about to.

    Can't happen here, you say? "One troubling provision of the House bill," writes Betsy McCaughey in the New York Post, "compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care (House bill, Pages 425-430)."

    One of the Obama administration's top medical care advisers is Oxford- and Harvard-educated bioethicist Ezekiel Emanuel. Yes, he's the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and has the ear of his brother and the president.

    "Calls for changing physician training and culture are perennial and usually ignored," he wrote last June in the Journal of the American Medical Association. "However, the progression in end-of-life care mentality from 'do everything' to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible."

    Emanuel sees a problem in the Hippocratic Oath doctors take to first do no harm, compelling them "as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others," thereby avoiding the inevitable move toward "socially sustainable, cost-effective care."

    During the June 24 ABC infomercial on health care broadcast from the White House, Obama confessed that if "it's my family member, if it's my wife, if it's my children, if it's my grandmother, I always want them to get the very best care."

    Not, apparently, if it's your grandmother.
    Epic own goal.

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  • #2


    ****.
    Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
    Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
    We've got both kinds

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    • #3
      Where does Hawking live? Oh, that's right, Never-Neverland.. It's hard to tell, what with his accent and all.
      Monkey!!!

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      • #4
        I'm pretty sure they're referring to the current UK, ie he wouldn't have a chance today.
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
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        • #5
          I didn't think the UK calculation took into effect things like being in a wheel chair or blindness. I can understand taking into account the terminal cancer eating your body, but what the hell does being in a wheel chair have to do with healthcare spending efficiency?
          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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          • #6
            Quality of life, Pat.

            Not sure I agree with it, but that's almost certainly the justification.
            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
            Stadtluft Macht Frei
            Killing it is the new killing it
            Ultima Ratio Regum

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            • #7
              With all the talk of death panels, etc. can somebody explain to me how private insurance plans make similar decisions in the US? They DON'T simply cover every procedure. What basis do they use?
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Asher View Post
                I'm pretty sure they're referring to the current UK, ie he wouldn't have a chance today.
                Still complete bull**** though.
                Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                We've got both kinds

                Comment


                • #9
                  I doubt there's a health system in the world where cost of treatment isn't taken into account and the prioritisation of patients for expensive treatments doesn't happen?

                  Is this guy really trying to suggest that doesn't happen in the US at the moment?

                  Oh and in the UK we still have private medicine, so people can still pay for treatment if they are rich enough. For those that aren't rich enough everyone gets a very high standard of care, it's not perfect. Medical treatments are advancing all the time and it's incredibly expensive providing healthcare, but generally it's a pretty amazing system.
                  Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                  Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                  We've got both kinds

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Quality of life, Pat.

                    Not sure I agree with it, but that's almost certainly the justification.
                    I am sure that is the justification given, but it isn't a relevant one.

                    Is this guy really trying to suggest that doesn't happen in the US at the moment?
                    The difference is choice I suppose, as in right now I am free to buy as much insurance as I want without the weight of a government system destroying the market to greatly reduce my ability to better coverage.

                    Medical treatments are advancing all the time and it's incredibly expensive providing healthcare, but generally it's a pretty amazing system.
                    I have to point out that most medical advances are not born from the socialized systems.
                    "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                    • #11
                      Here's the NICE guidance for Riluzole, which is apparently the only effective treatment for ALS which Hawking has.

                      Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                      Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                      We've got both kinds

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am sure that is the justification given, but it isn't a relevant one.


                        ???

                        Could you please explain your definition of "relevant"?

                        Their job is to maximize the total amount of quality-adjusted life years for the minimum cost. You might claim that they have no business trying to handicap the value of life by adjusting for quality of life, but I have no idea how you can simply claim that it's not "relevant".

                        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                        Stadtluft Macht Frei
                        Killing it is the new killing it
                        Ultima Ratio Regum

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I just don't get what the problem is.

                          Of course there have to be some prioritization of who gets what treatment, since public resources are not infinite. As others said, this probably already happens in the current private health care.

                          If people think this is a problem then they can personally buy an add-on private insurance which covers the parts which the public option does not pay for. Same as today: If you have enough money you can get the best care.

                          The Republican's scare-mongering is just silly.

                          Edit: This reminds me of other republican positions, like on global warming and evolution. The Republican party seems to thing that if they don't like reality (limited resources in the case of health care) then they can't just pretend it isn't so, and it will go away. Reality has a liberal bias. As Feynman said: "reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
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                          • #14
                            Their job is to maximize the total amount of quality-adjusted life years for the minimum cost. You might claim that they have no business trying to handicap the value of life by adjusting for quality of life, but I have no idea how you can simply claim that it's not "relevant".
                            I don't see how being in a wheelchair in any way degrades the quality of life of a person that is relevant in any cost/benefit analysis. It doesn't decrease life expectancy, it isn't a contributing factor to any illness. Unless there there is some prohibitive cost to the healthcare system associated with simply being in a wheel chair, how is it relevant to the calculation?

                            If they are trying to say that being in a wheel chair means you are some freak who does not deserve to live becuase their life must suck they are free to do so but that is not a judgment based on any medical assessment. Its the same thing as saying red heads/blacks/muslims shouldn't get healthcare just because.

                            I am not saying you shouldn't deny care because of certain factos, but being in a wheelchair has nothing to do with it one way or the other.

                            If people think this is a problem then they can personally buy an add-on private insurance which covers the parts which the public option does not pay for. Same as today: If you have enough money you can get the best care.
                            There is no opting out, and there is no chance of getting your current private healthcare at the same price once this goes through meaning many simply won't be able to afford their previous care level.
                            Last edited by Patroklos; August 11, 2009, 11:03.
                            "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                            • #15
                              It's things like American healthcare reform that make me question the merit of democracy and freedom of speech.
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