F-35 in trouble

[Lonestar]

The only thing the Japanese have passed on were screw designs for subs that they made themselves.

The worry with the Japanese isn't that they'll intentionally pass things on but that they can't protect secrets.

Like?

Japan isn't as leaky as a coriander, Israel is.

[Drake Tungsten]

Like?

Haven't you read anything on why the Japanese haven't been approved to purchase the F-22? American officials are worried that the Japanese won't be able to protect the technology in the F-22 from foreign intelligence agencies, the Chinese in particular.

[Lonestar]

Haven't you read anything on why the Japanese haven't been approved to purchase the F-22? American officials are worried that the Japanese won't be able to protect the technology in the F-22 from foreign intelligence agencies, the Chinese in particular.

They are not specifically afraid of Japan not being able to protect the technology, as the ban is on everyone, not just Japan.

[Drake Tungsten]

They are not specifically afraid of Japan.

Yes, they are.

[Lonestar]

Yes, they are.

Fine, I am challenging you to provide evidence that the ban on ALL foreign sales of the F-22 was tailored with Japan specifically in mind.

To make this clear, providing evidence of Japan being denied a waiver for the global ban on sales is not the same thing as specifically banning Japan from buying the F-22.

[Drake Tungsten]

Fine, I am challenging you to provide evidence that the ban on ALL foreign sales of the F-22 was tailored with Japan specifically in mind.

This is a retarded strawman. I clearly said that the reason the F-22 ban hasn't been lifted for Japan (despite the obvious benefits) is because American officials are specifically worried about Japanese technological security.

[HalfLotus]

Are the current planes having difficulties against our caveman adversaries?

[David Floyd]

Patroklos,

Congress gave us some extra submarines last year too, despite the Navy saying it already had a procurement schedule we were cool with. I am sure Congress knows better.

Congress knows better than professional soldiers? Sure. All Congressmen care about are votes and pork barrel projects for their home district. I firmly believe the majority of our elected officials, if given the choice between knowingly compromising our national security in order to firm up votes, or doing the right thing for our national security at the expense of votes, would take the votes every time. Democrats probably more so than Republicans, but I bet the number would be well over 50% in both parties.

Hell, the last time I can remember a politician doing the right thing at the expense of votes is the 1960 Presidential Election. JFK campaigned on a missile gap that didn't exist, and he knew it didn't exist. Nixon could have rebutted JFK, given that he was in a position to prove it, but didn't, because doing so would have given away US intelligence sources and threatened our security. Nixon did the right thing, and it cost him the entire election - and as a result, we got stuck with an incompetent jackass in JFK, who appointed similarly incompetent jackasses like Robert McNamara. I certainly can't see many politicians from either party doing the same thing today.

So no, Congress most certainly doesn't know better, and even if they did, they would still act in their own personal interest, rather than doing the job for which they were elected.

Lonestar,

OSD is saying that, but there have been USAF Chief of Staffs who say they do need more F-22s. And they got fired for publicly contradicting Gates. Which is why it's better to say:

"The Pentagon says we don't need any more. The Air Force, on the other hand..."

Good point. SecDef is a civilian, and the post doesn't require that the person have any practical knowledge of defense or national security. The post is really there as an aide to the President, and as such SecDef will do whatever the President tells him to do.

If you took the politics and politicians out of it, do you think the USAF would want more F-22s?

[David Floyd]

This is a retarded strawman. I clearly said that the reason the F-22 ban hasn't been lifted for Japan (despite the obvious benefits) is because American officials are specifically worried about Japanese technological security.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Japanese in particular, so much as it has to do with the fact that the F-22 is THE superior fighter aircraft in the world right now, and the US wants to ensure that a)we hold onto our edge, and b)no one, not even our allies, have a chance to reverse engineer it.

Also, the more countries that have access to the F-22, the more countries that espionage efforts can be launched against.

The US typically doesn't sell our most advanced technology. For quite a while, we wouldn't sell the latest version of the F-16, for example, and I can't think of any situation in which we've exported certain technology related to our submarine edge, or our stealth edge in general.

Not too many B-2s and Seawolf (or even 688s) export versions floating around, are there? Nor do I recall us taking any partners on the LandWarrior system (although I could be wrong on that one). There are likely many more examples.

[Drake Tungsten]

The US typically doesn't sell our most advanced technology.

I wonder how the Japanese acquired Aegis systems, advanced TMD radars, and the license to build their own F-15s, then...

Of course, Japan's performance in keeping Aegis secrets safe might be part of the reason why the U.S. doesn't trust them with the F-22 now.

Three Japanese naval officers who swapped pornography on their computers triggered a scandal over a possible leak of sensitive data linked to Japan's missile defense system, a newspaper said Thursday. Police launched a probe last week after a navy officer married to a Chinese woman was found to have taken home a computer disk containing information about the high-tech Aegis radar system, domestic media said.

http://asiangazette.blogspot.com/2007/04/japan-aegis-defense-leak-spying-or.html

[David Floyd]

Yes, they did acquire that technology - there wasn't a global ban on it.

The point was simply that the global ban isn't directed at Japan. That's a little bit paranoid. The global ban is simply because we don't want anyone getting their hands on the F-22.

While US military equipment is sold, and license built throughout the world, including in Japan, my point in addressing that was that much of it is not sold the second it becomes operational. It takes a while. I'm sure that some point, the F-22 will be made available as an export aircraft, if there's a market for it.

[Drake Tungsten]

The point was simply that the global ban isn't directed at Japan.

I never said it was, you ******.

Yes, they did acquire that technology - there wasn't a global ban on it.

No other country on Earth had access to AEGIS when we gave it to the Japanese. In fact, no other country had access to AEGIS for a decade after we gave it to the Japanese. Why aren't the Japanese getting the first piece of the F-22, as well?

[David Floyd]

Hey, look, dip****, I'm not even really sure what you're arguing in the first place. You seem to be pointing out that the US isn't selling the F-22 to Japan because we are afraid the technology will leak out. Well and good.

But my point is that there are not all that many examples of ultra-modern military hardware that has been immediately sold/licensed to our allies in the past. Yes, the F-15 was sold to the Israelis and Japanese, and licensed to the Japanese, but not until it had been operational in the US for a few years - Israel got a version of it in 1977, and Japan's came in 1981, whereas the USAF took delivery of the first F-15 into a frontline squadron near the end of 1975, IIRC.

As for the F-22, the USAF only took delivery into a frontline squadron in the past couple of years - I believe in 2006. If Japan follows the same timeline on this as they did the F-15, maybe they'll get one in 2011 or 2012. Then again, this is a irrelevancy, because Japan's constitution prohibits military spending from exceeding 1% of the country's GDP, and operating the F-22 would exceed that number. So, in that sense, it's illegal from the standpoint of BOTH countries for the US to sell the F-22 to Japan.

Before you call me retarded, know what the you're talking about, you stupid ****.

[Drake Tungsten]

You seem to be pointing out that the US isn't selling the F-22 to Japan because we are afraid the technology will leak out.

No ****. You must be a real genius to figure that out, considering I've said it twice already.

But my point is that there are not all that many examples of ultra-modern military hardware that has been immediately sold/licensed to our allies in the past. Yes, the F-15 was sold to the Israelis and Japanese, and licensed to the Japanese, but not until it had been operational in the US for a few years

The F-15 production line wasn't going to be shut down if the Japanese weren't allowed to order some planes. The practical arguments for selling the F-22 to Japan are much stronger than those for selling the F-15 were, yet there are no signs that it will ever happen.

Then again, this is a irrelevancy, because Japan's constitution prohibits military spending from exceeding 1% of the country's GDP

Wrong.

and operating the F-22 would exceed that number.

Also wrong.

So, in that sense, it's illegal from the standpoint of BOTH countries for the US to sell the F-22 to Japan.

Absolutely retarded.

Before you call me retarded, know what the you're talking about, you stupid ****.

I know a ****load more about this subject than you do.

[Lonestar]

This is a retarded strawman. I clearly said that the reason the F-22 ban hasn't been lifted for Japan (despite the obvious benefits) is because American officials are specifically worried about Japanese technological security.

Now you're blatantly lying. You said "Yes, they are." When I posted that they(Congress) is not specifically afraid of Japan leaking information. If they were the sales ban would have been on a per-country basis, instead of a universal one.

I never said it was, you ******.

No, you just said that the U.S. Government is specifically afraid that the Japanese would pass on F-22 technology, you dishonest douche.


Dave

Good point. SecDef is a civilian, and the post doesn't require that the person have any practical knowledge of defense or national security. The post is really there as an aide to the President, and as such SecDef will do whatever the President tells him to do.

If you took the politics and politicians out of it, do you think the USAF would want more F-22s?

Absolutely. We've already had USAF CoS's fired because they publically contradicted OSD on F-22 force levels, and we have other 4-stars saying stuff like "“To my knowledge, there are no studies that demonstrate that 187 F-22s are adequate to support our national military strategy.”