When is a coup legal?

[Zevico]

Incidentally--what was the ruling of the Honduran SC? Was it that the referendum couldn't be held by Presidential fiat? Or that it wouldn't be binding?

[Darius871]

Well in his defense, wouldn't such a referendum be illegal without an act of Congress? The President also defied a ruling against him to continue with the referendum and his followrs attacked a military base to sieze ballots.

I don't think anyone here is qualified to comment on the intricacies of Honduran constitutional jurisprudence, and I certainly think analogies to the U.S. Constitution are less than apt, but the question really depends on what the Honduran Constitution provides for an amendment process. If there is one, and it does not allow amendment by referendum, then by definition the referendum would be illegal. However, Zaku has voiced his opinion in the past that referenda should control the amendment process, Article 5 be damned, which is blatantly hypocritical here regardless of whatever Honduras' equivalent to Article 5 says.

[DinoDoc]

If there is one, and it does not allow amendment by referendum, then by definition the referendum would be illegal.

I'm gonna need a translation, but I'm fairly certain that these cover this situation based on my HS Spanish:

ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde:
5. Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelección del Presidente de la República; y,

ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la República.

El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, asà como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.

ARTICULO 374.- No podrán reformarse, en ningún caso, el artÃculo anterior, el presente artÃculo, los artÃculos constitucionales que se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al perÃodo presidencial, a la prohibición para ser nuevamente Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado bajo cualquier tÃtulo y el referente a quienes no pueden ser Presidentes de la República por el perÃodo subsiguiente.

http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html

[zakubandit]

No Darius, I don't have support for either side. I just see that the 3 branch system they have there in their democracy did what it is supposed to do, ensure that 1 branch does not exceed the power of the other 2 branches. Zelaya wanted to stay another term, judicial and legislative branches said no. They removed him from office.

The guy wants to be another Chavez.


I am at work and on a network with a lot of firewalls, I can't get to half the websites I try to get to.

Explain how the Federal Reserve System can be Constitutional if, only the Congress of the U.S., which comprises of the Senate and the House of Representatives has the power to coin and issue our money supply and regulate the value thereof? [Article 1 Section 1 and Section 8] Nowhere, in the Constitution does it give Congress the power or authority to transfer any powers granted under the Constitution to a private corporation or, does it?

[KrazyHorse]

I'm gonna need a translation, but I'm fairly certain that these cover this situation based on my HS Spanish:

ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde:
5. Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelección del Presidente de la República; y,

ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la República.

El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, asà como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.

ARTICULO 374.- No podrán reformarse, en ningún caso, el artÃculo anterior, el presente artÃculo, los artÃculos constitucionales que se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al perÃodo presidencial, a la prohibición para ser nuevamente Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado bajo cualquier tÃtulo y el referente a quienes no pueden ser Presidentes de la República por el perÃodo subsiguiente.

http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitut...as/hond05.html

Can you provide a rough translation? My HS spanish is probably worse than yours.

[zakubandit]

My Spanish translation.

I ARTICULATE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost:
5. To urge, to promote or to support the continuation or the re-election of the President of the Republic; and
I ARTICULATE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the titular of the Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the Republic.
The one that break this disposition or propose its reform, as well as those that supports it direct or indirectly, will stop immediately in the performance of their respective positions and will be disqualified by ten (10) years for the exercise of all public function.
I ARTICULATE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in no case, the previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles that talk about the form of government, to the national territory, the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of the Republic, the citizen who has carried out it under any title and the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic by the subsequent period.

If your wife speaks Spanish, you tend to learn a lot.

[DinoDoc]

Can you provide a rough translation? My HS spanish is probably worse than yours.

42 says something about striping the citizenship of anyone who promotes the reelection of the President.

239 blathers on about banning people from public office for ten years who work against that prohibition.

374 bans changes to the presidential term among other things that are irrelevent to this discussion.

[KrazyHorse]

I don't think it means that citizenship is lost; I think that it's saying that the capacity of the citizenry is eliminated to blah blah blah. As for the rest of it, I basically agree (bearing in mind how terrible my Spanish is).

[zakubandit]

I had to get my wife to translate a few of the complicated words. My Spanish isn't so great. I am more of an Asian languages person, Korean Chinese.

[DirtyMartini]

I had to get my wife to translate a few of the complicated words. My Spanish isn't so great. I am more of an Asian languages person, Korean Chinese.

You should have her do the same with the U.S. Constitution: your grasp on English apparently is quite tenuous as well, if your interpretations of that document are any indication.

[zakubandit]

OK I ran the

La calidad de ciudadano se pierde

by my Chilean ex-girlfriend, and a Brazilian client who is here at my office, he speaks Portuguese, and they both said it is "quality of citizen is lost"

[DirtyMartini]

It's like the UN! Chinese, Chilean, Brazilian, Honduran...just no $*&%ing MEXICANS.

[Kuciwalker]

You should have her do the same with the U.S. Constitution: your grasp on English apparently is quite tenuous as well, if your interpretations of that document are any indication.

[Arrian]

I really don't know what the deal is down in Honduras, and it sounds like the ousted Pres has his faults... but when I think of Latin American military coups, somehow I don't get the warm fuzzies.

-Arrian

[Kuciwalker]

Reagan would be ashamed