Honduras: Army 1, President 0

[Ming]

I guess the secret to being rich is to have a small Latin America country, and be critical of the US. And then receive over 200 million dollars in development aid.

While 200 million is a drop in the bucket for the overall economic problems in the US, I'm sure there are better things we could be doing with that money. We should be helping our friends, not countries who want to paint the US as the bad guy for political reasons.

[Grandpa Troll]

I guess the secret to being rich is to have a small Latin America country, and be critical of the US. And then receive over 200 million dollars in development aid.

While 200 million is a drop in the bucket for the overall economic problems in the US, I'm sure there are better things we could be doing with that money. We should be helping our friends, not countries who want to paint the US as the bad guy for political reasons.

Excellent point Ming

Same goes for folks who want to be liberated from occupying forces, they scream, ask for Uncle Sam and then protest the US being mean and heavy handed

[Drake Tungsten]

It appears Drake likes right-wing dictators but does not like leaders who are chosen by the majority of the citizens.

I like democracy.

[DaShi]

Excellent point Ming

Same goes for folks who want to be liberated from occupying forces, they scream, ask for Uncle Sam and then protest the US being mean and heavy handed

That's because we are the occupying force.

[Patroklos]

Not really. The legislature could've just ignored his referendum. This was backed by people with $$... more likely than not it's just the same old same old for the govts of Latin America.

The referendum is being performed through the state, so the legislature ignoring his referendum would be them turning a blind eye to the gross abuse of executive power.

Not only that, he was trying to use the Army to conduct the referendum. The Army chief, true to the constitution, refused to obey the illegal order and was fired for it (how is that for a change in Latin Americna politics!). This is what prompted the more drastic action, authorized specifically by the other two branches of government.

The army in this instance is a perfect example of how true democratic institutions have evolved in that area.

[Space05us]

So suppose Bush had said before the GOP primaries "you know what, I'm gonna run for a third term, and to hell with all you naysayers, I'll just hold a referendum to scrap that pesky 22nd Amendment," and the GOP was on board with this decision, but the SCOTUS issues a ruling that the referendum would be unconstitutional (for noncompliance with Article 5, though I'm not aware of any analogue to that in Honduras) and Congress passes a nonbinding resolution that concurs, so Bush just pulls a Jackson and tells the SCOTUS "good luck enforcing it," and in response a regiment from the 82nd Airborne walks into the White House and places him under arrest until after his replacement can be elected and inaugurated. Would that be a "coup," or just enforcement of the Constitution by the last institution standing? There's really no black-letter provision that could clear this up.

In the US the military doesn't have policing powers, that's different in other countries.

[Patroklos]

I think you might want to read the US officer oath if you think that. Deposing the President is most definetly in the scope of the US military if he was pulling something like this guy did. We are not the first instrument to be turned to for sure, but if push comes to shove...

And it would look pretty much just like this. I am curious if there are national law enforcement entities that can be turned to in Honduras, and if they are did they refuse to/proved incabale of deposing the president? It is not uncommon for the militaries of such nations to be a good portion of the national law enforcement apparatus themselves.

[rah]

Yeah, it's nice to see latin military group supporting their constitution.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, I don't consider it a Military Coup unless a General is made president. Or they say the heck with a president and the General is in charge. This seems a bit more gray.

Indeed. It is vastly different in this case. Supreme Court and Congress saying the President is violating the Constitution, so the military goes in and deposes the President and turns power back to the Congress.

[Blaupanzer]

I'm not sure that the military is supporting the constitution. Sounds like President Zelaya tried to get a referendum on the ballot. The supreme court said, "tain't legal." The President tried to bypass that decision and the legislature, who also opposed the referendum, by using the Army to distribute the referendum directly to the people. The Army refused and their commander was fired. The legislature then voted a different person as President, and the Army arrested the current President. Apparently, the actions in the previous sentence are beyond their powers in the the current constitution.

If the paragraph above summarizes actions to date, then supporters of DEMOCRACY must support the restoration of Zelaya, the ELECTED President. The referendum will not appear on the ballot, but removal of the Pres must be done legally, not by having the most guns. The coup underway must be undone.

[Patroklos]

The legislature then voted a different person as President, and the Army arrested the current President. Apparently, the actions in the previous sentence are beyond their powers in the the current constitution.

I believe the legeslature voted in a new president after the old one was deposed.

From the Honduran constitution:

Article 42 strips citizenship rights from those who call for the re-election or continuing (beyond the term) of the President of the Republic.

Article 239 not only prohibits the re-election of a President of the Republic, but calls for the immediate removal from public office and disqualification from any political office for 10 years any person who calls for a change in that prohibition.

Not a litteral quote. The question then is who is responsible for removing the President from office?

[Kuciwalker]

wow

[Blaupanzer]

Patroklos, where did you get that analysis of the Honduran constitutional articles? Good stuff!

[Patroklos]

I lifted it off another forum. I can't vouch personally for accuracy, but I have no reason to doubt the poster.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8218358&postcount=97

[Patroklos]

On a related note, it is absolutely hilarious listening to Chavez, Morales and Correa talk about military action