north korea successful nuclear test!

[Q Classic]

How do you figure it is our fault at all? Seems like the blame rests solely on China, USSR and NK.

The only reason China and the USSR managed to get a foothold on that peninsula in the 20th Century after the conclusion of the Second World War is because of the Japanese Occupation of Korea.

Which Theodore Roosevelt, great man that he was, made a mistake about, and tacitly allowed Japan to annex Korea.

There's also the whole bit of Carter, recently, going and mucking things up. And Bush, recently, letting it fester since he had no coherent strategy.

This is not a blame-US fest, though, not from my end. There's more than enough to go around. SKorea should have manned up earlier and terminated the Sunshine Policy and been stronger about demanding reciprocation; China should have leaned harder on them; the USSR/Russia should have been less disinterested at exactly the wrong times.

On the other hand, if you want to be a ****wit and assume my correction of Kitchum was not that, but rather a complete acceptance of "Blame America First", since you clearly assume I'm a liberal, feel free. Just know you're ****ing wrong.

[Patroklos]

The only reason China and the USSR managed to get a foothold on that peninsula in the 20th Century after the conclusion of the Second World War is because of the Japanese Occupation of Korea.

Thats like saying Germany was responsible for the Soviet subjugation of Hungry. While it is certainly a contributing factor to how the certain players got involved, it does not excuse the simple fact that those players then created what they did of their own free will.

There's also the whole bit of Carter, recently, going and mucking things up. And Bush, recently, letting it fester since he had no coherent strategy.

Despite what every president thoguht about it when thinking about their legacy, short of physically outing the regime militarily there was nothing any of them since 1953 could have done about Korea being divided or NK being the crap hole it is. Keeping NK from brutally subjugating South Korea in the same mold doe snot equate to us being responsible for why North Korea is a hell hole.

On the other hand, if you want to be a ****wit and assume my correction of Kitchum was not that, but rather a complete acceptance of "Blame America First", since you clearly assume I'm a liberal, feel free. Just know you're ****ing wrong.

You're insecurity is showing. All I asked was for you show how the US is responsible for the current NK situation. You failed, thats it. It happens sometimes, no need to be an *******

[Wezil]

I place most (not all) blame on Russia and China. The last thing they want to see is a united Korea in the western sphere of influence. A rogue regime they think they can sway is preferable.

[onodera]

So they have nukes. Every country should have nukes. No more wars.

This would work, except some countries are not stable enough to have nukes. Imagine Afghanistan with nukes. Or Rwanda with nukes.

[Q Classic]

Thats like saying Germany was responsible for the Soviet subjugation of Hungry. While it is certainly a contributing factor to how the certain players got involved, it does not excuse the simple fact that those players then created what they did of their own free will.

That does not exonerate the Germans for Hungary--and nowhere did I exonerate the principal actors, either.

Despite what every president thoguht about it when thinking about their legacy, short of physically outing the regime militarily there was nothing any of them since 1953 could have done about Korea being divided or NK being the crap hole it is. Keeping NK from brutally subjugating South Korea in the same mold doe snot equate to us being responsible for why North Korea is a hell hole.

I did not say we (speaking as an American) were wholly responsible.

Your insecurity is showing. All I asked was for you show how the US is responsible for the current NK situation.

And I did. I quite clearly point out that the lack of any coherent policy in the past twenty years from the US government has exacerbated an already unpleasant situation. The schizophrenia that seems endemic to Washington on the Korean question makes us look about as logical as they do.

There was no insecurity, but rather a preemptive remark, since most conservatives such as yourself automatically seem to assume any criticism of the United States is necessarily placing all of the blame on it.

You failed, thats it. It happens sometimes, no need to be an *******

Just because you refuse to understand cause and effect does not mean I failed.

[Q Classic]

I place most (not all) blame on Russia and China. The last thing they want to see is a united Korea in the western sphere of influence. A rogue regime they think they can sway is preferable.

Actually, I don't think it's a United Korea they fear, but a collapsed NKorea.

It's the same fear that the SKoreans have, only it'll be easier for the NKoreans to flood into China.

For them, a United Korea would probably prove to be a boon, because even now, for as "Western-influenced" as everybody thinks they are, China's quickly supplanting America as the #1 destination and trading partner for Korea.

A Unified Korea would simply be more beholden to them economically--which would suit them just fine.

[Patroklos]

That does not exonerate the Germans for Hungary--and nowhere did I exonerate the principal actors, either.

Did I claim any exoneration for the Germans? They certainly have their own crimes to answer for in that territory but the Soviet occupation is not one of them.

And I did. I quite clearly point out that the lack of any coherent policy in the past twenty years from the US government has exacerbated an already unpleasant situation. The schizophrenia that seems endemic to Washington on the Korean question makes us look about as logical as they do.

Hardly. The Korean pennisula was nothing but a backwater given the realities of the US at the time. You might as well blame the US for being complicit in the Boer Wars. There is no reasonable way to assign blame to the US.

There was no insecurity, but rather a preemptive remark, since most conservatives such as yourself automatically seem to assume any criticism of the United States is necessarily placing all of the blame on it.

Thats kind of the defintion of insecurity. Perhaps you should talk to actual people instead of the caricatures you make up in your head.

Just because you refuse to understand cause and effect does not mean I failed.

Oh I understand you, I understand just fine how the Qin Dynasty are responsible for the current NK situation

[RGBVideo]

I place most (not all) blame on Russia and China. The last thing they want to see is a united Korea in the western sphere of influence. A rogue regime they think they can sway is preferable.

the problem is, you and most of the US public (YES I KNOW YOU'RE NOT AN AMERICAN, THAT PRESUMPTION IS NOT INCLUDED IN THIS STATEMENT SO NO NEED TO CONTINUE WITH YOUR DEFENSIVE KNEE-JERK REACTIONS, BRAVE FLAME WARRIORS OF APOLYTON) still lives in the world of cold war

US and China could force dictators out of North Korea together if they wanted to. They both want stability, no nukes and a peaceful, prosperous Korea as a trading partner.

[Patroklos]

China could do it by itself without firing a shot, the US can't do it by itself without leveling the place. That should tell you something.

[Wezil]

China could do it by itself without firing a shot, the US can't do it by itself without leveling the place. That should tell you something.

Exactly.

If a united korea is what the russians and chinese want then WTF are they waiting for?

Cold war thinking my ass.

[RGBVideo]

without high risk of triggering a power struggle and civil war in north korea? no

dictator dependant from you is far better than anarchy when you're talking about your neighbouring state

[Patroklos]

Anarchy? China could easily bribe the NK military to depose Kim and slowly reform. China is really holding all the cards, without their support nobody in NK remains in power long.

[Alinestra Covelia]

China could easily bribe the NK military to depose Kim and slowly reform.

I've never heard this argument before. You score points for surprise value.

[Q Classic]

It is a bit overly optimistic, isn't it?

[rah]

I don't know. Dictators are only good as the army supporting them. Military juntas are quite common. China making deals to support a junta would make it a huge possibility.