Competition, Education, and America

[Jon Miller]

So one thing that gets me is how low the competition is in America's school system.

I mean, there is some competition really only in one main place before pre bachelor degree:

The college entrance exams (SAT/ACT)

And there are many colleges that don't even require these, or who don't require much for these. Additionally, there are many other things that colleges consider in entrances. It is true that there is a bit of competition in grades, however, it is very easy to get an A in american highschool/middle school/etc, and most people don't try (I know I didn't). So good grades don't necessarily tell much, and generally it seems to me that colleges ignore them. I know that while I was only in the upper 25% grade wise (in my highschool), I did have the most scholastic skills and have been the most successful in education afterward (and despite not making much money, doing better than msot of them on that front too).

Compare to other systems. I know that many asian countries like japan, india, and korea... students put a lot of focus on competition and succeeding. Students are always ranked, and in many places (like india), only the best are allowed into college/etc.

I think that in europe there is also more competition than in america.

There are benefits to making it so that anyone can go to college. I have a friend who was a druggie and a screwup in highschool (god Ds/etc). He then got his act together when he went to community college, got a physics degree, and will soon complete his PhD in physics. Definitely not a dumb guy, just didn't apply himself in highschool.

It seems to me that in less forgiving systems, he would be **** out of luck.

However, it is also somewhat of a waste all the education we are trying to give people or making available (for cheap) for people who don't want to apply themselves. This thread is somewhat a response to my and KH's discussion. I definitely do see a problem with forcing education on people who aren't applying themselves and aren't going to use it... they should be allowed to quit it and get a job at McDs if they wish.

JM

[Traianvs]

People in Japan also happen to be bat**** crazy. Never heard of all those kids locking themselves up in their rooms because they can't handle the extreme pressure exerted by school teachers, parents etc? Definately not a world I'd like to live in.

In my country there is no competition at all in high school. Almost everyone can attend university if they wish to do so, except for a small number of courses that require prior knowledge of certain sciences such as medicine or engineering, but even then you don't need to have taken all those science courses in high school.

We do bring smarter kids together so dumber kids don't bog down classes, so basically everyone gets a different curriculum. I don't know how that's like in the US, but it works more or less over here.

I would have probably slipped into misery and possibly insanity if it weren't for our system, since I had terrible grades in high school (albeit taking one of the 'better curriculums'). I wouldn't focus too much on maximizing efficiency. We all want to have good and comfortable lives too right? Let the overzealous pursue whatever career they want, but don't oblige those people wishing a less stressful life.

[DanS]

The Asian systems are more different than they are alike.

The Korean system shoots for 10% of the population attaining a degree -- no more. Once in, the system is lavish. The competition breeds a whole bunch of ridiculousness, and the system is rigid, which is why you have education tourists from Korea living in Northern Virginia while their kids go to school.

The Japanese system puts upwards of 20% of the population attaining a degree. Once in, the system promotes socializing and drinking -- not hard at all. Don't need to know much to be a salaryman. And the Japanese don't spend a ton on the system. I think the competitiveness of getting into Japanese higher education is overrated.

India is, of course, hypercompetitive, at least in engineering and the sciences. Don't know too much what percentage of folks get a higher degree.

Getting into college in the US is not very hard. About a quarter of the population attains a degree, so the bar is fairly low. The competition once in college varies by discipline. As I have seen, engineering is competitive. Architecture is competitive. English literature is not competitive. History is not competitive. Music is competitive. And so on. The US system for higher education is lavish.

All of the anglophone higher education systems (ex-India) are somewhat similar, although varying degrees less lavish than the US system. Europe is a total grab bag, but invariably much less lavish than in the US.