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  • Tensions between Poland and Germany

    The Expulsion

    As Red Army approached, most Germans fled from the east, especially since the fate of the first german village in Prussia taken by USSR and later recaptured by Germans was discovered. Many were evacuated by german authorities. During the escape, many have died, especially that it took place in wartime conditions.
    The remaining population was often closed by Soviets in camps. Polish communist authorities, very weak at this point, tried to convince some polish-speaking german citizens to declare polish nationality. They were successful sometimes, sometimes not. After relocation of Germans was ordered by Potsdam treaty, those german citizens that didn't declare polish nationality were to leave, apart from some that were kept - with or against their will - by authorities as needed for administering the land.

    The camps some german citizens were kept in former german concentration camps. Some atrocities were commited by Soviet, and communist polish citizens during the process, Poland prosecuted some of them as early as the 50s, but with little success, and again in the 90s, when there was a reknown case of Salomon Morel, whose extradition was denied by Israel.

    The post-ww2 conditions in polish lands were really bad, and especially on halfly deserted and utterly destroyed post-german ones. I've read documents concerning Eastern Prussia: polish authorities were hardly existing, they weren't obeyed or respected by soviet military, the place was full of soviet deserters and regular army pillaging everyone, as well as pillaging bands from nearby polish Masovia region. Both were pillaging all:
    actual Germans, polish-speaking Masurians and Warmiak, polish settlers, polish compulsory workers. They were stronger than polish ad hoc organised militia. As the transport system was destroyed, and people taken away from their fields by soviet military, fled, evacuated or killed, there was lack of nurriture, while winter was approaching. Rats, pestilence, more death, robberies etc. This affected all prople in these regions.

    The territories were re-populated by polish (czech and russian in other cases) citizens, in polish case often the ones expelled by USSR from Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania etc. That is the case of my grandparents.

    After that, there were a couples of deals between Poland and Germany that allowed "uniting families" - people descending from german citizens, or married to such, could leave for Germany. Many did, mostly for economic reasons. That includes members of my family, living until today in Berlin.
    They were called "late expelees", but in truth, they were not expelled, they left on their free will, except for that these that wanted to return were mostly denied such possibility. I must add, however, that though the main reasons were economical, in some cases it was also about bad attitude towards former german citizens.

    During Cold War, Poles were often threatened by its authorities, that Germans will come back and drive them away from Silesia and Pommerania, and the german Expelees organisations were treated as pure evil, especially since they were far-right, headed by ex-nazis, and openly revisionist.
    CDU has a long tradition of using Expelees for its purpouses, but even SPD supported them. I am not very suprised that Germans minded that, I understand that. But they should be well aware that it ment Poles had reasons to fear. For many years all people borned in german pre-ww2, and even pre-ww1 borders were officially german citizens. Germany claimed that Silesia, Pommerania etc are merely polish occupation zone; Eastern Germany was called "Central Germany", as Eastern Germany was western Poland etc.
    German full acceptance of the post-ww2 border was only done in 1990, and even today NPD questions that.


    THE CENTRE

    As I've already mentioned, Germany wishes to create the Centre Against Expulsions, dealing mostly with the history of expulsion of Germans from Central/Eastern Europe after ww2.

    Poland and Czech Republic were against the idea; Poland and some german politicians wanted to neutralise the Centre by placing it in Wroclaw (Breslau), Poland.

    The idea of the Centrum was promoted mostly by Erika Steinbach, leader of League of Expelees. She is highly controversial in Poland, as well as the organisations. It comes from a couple of facts:
    - while Steinbach has a status of an expelee according to german law, she isn't really an expelee. Her father was a german officer from inner Germany (Hessen I think) who stationed in Poland during the war, and so she was borned there, in a house owned by Poles, expelled from it.
    - she voted (as CDU parliamentarist) and campaigned against recognition of polish-german border in 1990
    - she campaigned against letting Poland into NATO and EU
    - it was that activity that gained her popularity and only then, in the 90s, the joined BdV (League of Expelees).
    - it was discovered that on the meetings of BdV, neo-nazi pamphlets are being quite openly distributed
    - vice-leader of BdV engaged in an action to reclaim property of expelled Germans.

    I must add that Steinbach indeed tried to make some gestures towards Poland, but she never commented over her former anti-polish actions.

    Eventually, the Centre is to be created in Germany, however it was promised that it will be done in the spirit of conciliation with Poland etc etd, and Steinbach was supposed to disappear.

    BdV was offered places in the council of the Centre, however, and while it is natural, they nominated Steinbach to it, which brought much anger from Poland, as well as not-right-wing german parties: SPD, post-communists, Green and even Liberals. CDU supported Steinbach, while Merkel hesitated for a long time.

    Eventually, under the pressure, Steinbach resigned from the place in the council, however, BdV left the place free, and Steinbach commented about it as a "sword of Damokles", perhaps hinting she would take it, but later on.

    W. Bartoszewski, former polish MFA, as well as concentration camp prisoneer, who was sent by Poland to talk about the matter of Steinbach to Merkel, commented that sending Steinbach to an organisation which is supposed, according to the declarations, act towards polish-german concilliation would be like sending a reknown antisemite for a diplomatic mission to Jerusalem (he ment Tell Aviv), which caused an anger in Germany, and a condemnation by leader of Bundestag.
    Steinbach got support not only from CDU, but also from german catholic hierarchy.

    I must add, that Poles were often told by german part that Steinbach is an unimportant politician, so Poland shouldn't care about her. Yet her ideas are being realised, and her person stubbornly defended by CDU.

    Oh, NPD (neo-fascists) in Saxony recently called expulsion of Germans "Holocaust", but the rest of Saxony apologised Poland for that.

    Again, the expulsions ment a tragedy for people living there - most supported nazis, but there were innocent people there as well. They've lost their homeland, they encountered tragic events during the travel, before and after it etc. So I understand that they want to commemorate their history and I find Kaczynskis' claims about that Poland should have done more to stop it
    not quite moral. But it must be assured that the vision of expulsions often present in the far right-wing people around BdV would not be presented there, and that the sensibility of the other side would not be hurt. That the Centre would be a step towards conciliation, not against it. The presence of Steinbach is a slap in the face of Poland, for the isn't a real expelee, and was a stubborn enemy of Poland in her parliamentary career. I believe that Bartoszewski made a good comparison.
    "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
    I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
    Middle East!

  • #2
    You guys take that much too serious. And while I'm not a fan of the Steinbach camp it seems there's too much fuss about her in Polish media. She isn't really that important.
    Blah

    Comment


    • #3
      If so, why not just say: sorry lady, You're out of this project,
      and be done with it?

      Isn't she vice-something of CDU as well?
      "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
      I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
      Middle East!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Heresson View Post
        The Expulsion

        As I've already mentioned, Germany wishes to create the Centre Against Expulsions, dealing mostly with the history of expulsion of Germans from Central/Eastern Europe after ww2.
        Not true. The exhibition now created in Berlin is NOT the "Centre Against Expulsion" (which is the concept of the BdV), is is called "Center for Documentation about Expellations and Refugees" and it is being done by the German Historic Museum. The exhibition will deal with ALL expulsions in Europe during and after WW2, including forced resettlements by Germany during the war, expulsions orderd by the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe after the war, and the expulsions that happened during the Yugoslav war. Polish historians are welcome to participate.

        - while Steinbach has a status of an expelee according to german law, she isn't really an expelee. Her father was a german officer from inner Germany (Hessen I think) who stationed in Poland during the war, and so she was borned there, in a house owned by Poles, expelled from it.
        Before he was deployed to Rumia her father spent most of his life in Lower Silesia. Which makes him a refugee, and her the child of a refugee.

        Eventually, the Centre is to be created in Germany, however it was promised that it will be done in the spirit of conciliation with Poland
        See above...

        and Steinbach was supposed to disappear.
        ...which she did, since she won't be on the board. What else do you want?

        Eventually, under the pressure, Steinbach resigned from the place in the council, however, BdV left the place free,
        They have every right to keep the seat empty, if they want to. It just means less influence for them.

        Steinbach got support not only from CDU, but also from german catholic hierarchy.
        So?

        I must add, that Poles were often told by german part that Steinbach is an unimportant politician, so Poland shouldn't care about her. Yet her ideas are being realised, and her person stubbornly defended by CDU.
        Her idea, which is the Centre against Expulsion, is NOT being realized.


        The presence of Steinbach is a slap in the face of Poland,
        What presence? Her mere existence?

        --------------

        For the record, I detest Erika Steinbach myself, but I really have no idea why you keep complaining in this case. Germany pandered to Poland in virtually all matters, the exception being the location of the museum (Berlin).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Heresson View Post
          If so, why not just say: sorry lady, You're out of this project,
          ...that's EXACTLY what Chancellor Merkel said to her.

          Isn't she vice-something of CDU as well?
          She is a member of the national board of the CDU.

          Comment


          • #6
            About 8 years late mate...everyone stopped discussing it ages ago
            You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ElTigre View Post
              Not true. The exhibition now created in Berlin is NOT the "Centre Against Expulsion" (which is the concept of the BdV), is is called "Center for Documentation about Expellations and Refugees" and it is being done by the German Historic Museum. The exhibition will deal with ALL expulsions in Europe during and after WW2, including forced resettlements by Germany during the war, expulsions orderd by the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe after the war, and the expulsions that happened during the Yugoslav war. Polish historians are welcome to participate.
              You want to say that the resettlement of Germans after the was shall be, like, 10% or less of the exhibition? I really doubt it.

              Before he was deployed to Rumia her father spent most of his life in Lower Silesia. Which makes him a refugee, and her the child of a refugee.
              As long as I know, his family had some distant roots in Lower Silesia, but he himself was from Hanau, Hessen. I may be wrong, though. Anyway, she has never visited Lower Silesia, and her status as an expelee comes from the fact she was borned in Rumia. How can you lose something you've never had?

              ...which she did, since she won't be on the board. What else do you want?
              She was supposed to be moved away from the museum, it was an old promess by german authorities. And then she was nominated by BdV for the board/council/whatever of this Centre, which ment that the previous promess by Germany was void. The second time, only after much pressure from Poland and left wing, she resigned of the post, and, as she claims, only temporily. Had Poland not *****ed about it, Steinbach would be in the board of the Centre by back door, and with a quiet consent from the gouverment. After all, they've granted places to BdV, and it was certain they'd nominate Steinbach.

              They have every right to keep the seat empty, if they want to. It just means less influence for them.
              Did I say they do not have this right? I am only saying that it means Steinbach may be back, so the problem was postponed rather than solved.

              So?
              Nothing, only informing about it. Although it is silly if a bishop claims that "Stainbach always promoted conciliation".

              Her idea, which is the Centre against Expulsion, is NOT being realized.
              It is, but it is modified, tempered etc. The general idea was to make a museum about expulsions. Again, imo it is not a bad idea per se.

              What presence? Her mere existence?
              her presence in the board of the Centre about expulsions.

              For the record, I detest Erika Steinbach myself, but I really have no idea why you keep complaining in this case. Germany pandered to Poland in virtually all matters, the exception being the location of the museum (Berlin).

              I'm not complaining about Germany, as You seem to think. I am merely informing the forum about the conflict that took place. If You read the parts of my post concerning the Expelled, You will see it very much favourable towards them. I really could rant about nazis getting 90% or so popular support in Eastern Prussia, and that the Germans have earned all that they got, about polish sufferings during the war and compare it to the less suffering and during less time that the Expelled endured, and I did not. There are some people saying, both in Poland and in Germany, that commemoration of the flight and expulsion of Germans would be wrong, because it would blur the distinction between who were the general victim, and who was the opressor in ww2. I am against such way of thinking, I believe that history should be shown in all its complexity and while I am certain some Germans wish to have this museum for the simple reason that the history of expulsions can be easily manipulated and used against Poles, I think it's not a sufficient reason to act against the existance of such museum. Au contraire, it may be useful to promote balanced knowledge and facts, and may act as a tearing out a thorn from the memory of german nation. But it will probably not be so if people like Steinbach are involved in it.

              What are the matters, exactly, in which Germany bowed to Poland in this matter? Poland wanted it to be a joint operation - it is not. Poland wanted it to be in Wroclaw / Breslau - it is not. Poland wanted BdV away from it - it is not. Poland wanted Erika Steinbach out - it was hardly achieved, and to much complaining of very prominent german politicians.

              Oh, I know it's annoying when a foreigner criticises your country, but You don't see me defending each step Kaczynskis are making.
              "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
              I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
              Middle East!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ElTigre View Post
                ...that's EXACTLY what Chancellor Merkel said to her.
                Only after the second quarrel about her.
                "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                Middle East!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Kill the commies

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Germans need to raise and equip at least 50 modern divisions before this problem can be resolved.
                    Long time member @ Apolyton
                    Civilization player since the dawn of time

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lancer View Post
                      The Germans need to raise and equip at least 50 modern divisions before this problem can be resolved.
                      50? Hardly.

                      But come on, another general European war will surely stiumlate the global economy! Come on people, get to it.
                      If you don't like reality, change it! me
                      "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                      "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                      "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A war between Russia and China would have been better: both would buy food, armaments etc from us, and after they are finished, european settlers, backed by engineers clearing the pollution, shall re-populate the vast wastelands.
                        "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                        I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                        Middle East!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Heresson View Post
                          A war between Russia and China would have been better: both would buy food, armaments etc from us, and after they are finished, european settlers, backed by engineers clearing the pollution, shall re-populate the vast wastelands.
                          Given that the Chinese actually still have money to lend, no, a war between Europeans is best. On top of that, once the ruins stop smoking, overcrowding in the third world could be alliviated by moving people into Europe.
                          If you don't like reality, change it! me
                          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GePap View Post
                            50? Hardly.

                            But come on, another general European war will surely stiumlate the global economy! Come on people, get to it.
                            We provided world wars two times now, single-handedly made the US a superpower during the last one (well, 'mkay, Japan helped a bit too), and what did we get in return???

                            Now someone else please
                            Blah

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Germany should just annex Poland and be done with it.
                              I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                              I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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