Economists expect report of first deflation in 54 years

[MrFun]

Sorry, buddy, but you lost me right there. Capitalism is about how you organize your economy. Hong Kong is capitalist. I've never heard of the Hong Kongese empire, nor do people cower before the legions of Hong Kong. Imperialism and militarism are separate from the free market.

The USSR was all about imperialism and militarism, but opposed to the free market. There's my counter-example.

Imperialism can go hand-in-hand with different kinds of economic systems, not just with capitalism.

I think when others are saying there is a prevalent pattern of Western European nations and Western nations such as United States having historical patterns of their capitalist systems being intimately tied with colonialism or imperialism, they are NOT claiming that this is ALWAYS the case, worldwide.

Of course you're going to see capitalist countries that never became empires - such as Hong Kong. But this does not deny the plausible fact that with other countries and their history, that capitalism was a strong catalyst for colonial/imperial expansion and conquest.

[Felch]

According to some fine post-WW II studies, colonies were never very profitable for the colonial powers themselves. Some corporations made fabulous profits, but the Governments would have been better off, economically, without the colonies.

This is true. There were a few profitable colonies, but the majority were just land grabs made for prestige, or occasionally strategic reasons (coaling stations for navies especially).

[MrFun]

Don't forget about the highly valuable commodities, sugar, spices, coffee, and tea produced in West and East Indies colonies in 17th and 18th centuries.

[Blaupanzer]

Yes, colonies served political needs. Thus, imperialism was a political movement not an economic one.

[Felch]

Don't forget about the highly valuable commodities, sugar, spices, coffee, and tea produced in West and East Indies colonies in 17th and 18th centuries.

Or tobacco in the former colony I call home.

18th century colonies tended to be more practical than the 19th century boom. By the Berlin conference of 1885 (not so sure about the year, but I think that's right) countries were carving up worthless chunks of land into empires, and exploiting the hell out of them to get whatever they could.

Another issue is that American colonization was made easier by the pandemics that wiped out most of the native population. In Africa and Asia, the diseases were more deadly to the Europeans than the natives.

[OzzyKP]

You're right Ozzy.

The crimes aren't done by capitalism or by communism. There are no crimes done by Christianity or Islam or atheism. The crimes are done by human beings. And there's no ideology that can trump human nature.

Exactly.

[Kidlicious]

You're saying it, but you're not proving it. You have no evidence. All you have is an opinion, and so does everybody else. You say "It's pretty obvious that a free market would fail in the same situation." No, it isn't. There's no proof, there's no evidence, there's nothing.

If you're trying to convince me, you failed. Just like North Korea, a planned economy.

I can't help it if you can't figure out that if the free market fails due to things like a housing crisis it's not going to make it through peak oil. Sorry, that's all on you.

[MrFun]

Or tobacco in the former colony I call home.

18th century colonies tended to be more practical than the 19th century boom. By the Berlin conference of 1885 (not so sure about the year, but I think that's right) countries were carving up worthless chunks of land into empires, and exploiting the hell out of them to get whatever they could.

Another issue is that American colonization was made easier by the pandemics that wiped out most of the native population. In Africa and Asia, the diseases were more deadly to the Europeans than the natives.

Until other synthetic means to produce rubber were introduced, Belgium's Congo colony was highly profitable in the late 19th century and early 20th century.

And yeah - I forgot to mention tobacco as another highly valuable commodity in the 17th and 18th centuries.

But do you get my point about understanding that ties between capitalism and colonialism does not equate with it being an absolute truth in every part of the world, with every capitalist country?

[Felch]

Kidicious,

You're comparing apples to oranges though. Cuba went through very tough times in the early nineties. North Korea suffered massive famines. We're not having anything close to that yet.

[Kidlicious]

You're comparing apples to oranges though. Cuba went through very tough times in the early nineties. North Korea suffered massive famines. We're not having anything close to that yet.

It's not apples to oranges. It's like big apples to small apples. The mortgage crisis being the small apple compared to peak oil, which is a very big crisis. I realize the incredible faith you have in the free market, but there's no way a free market can handle peak oil. That's absurd.

[MrFun]

The sky is not falling, Kid.

[Kidlicious]

The sky is not falling, Kid.

Dude... plz just stfu

[Felch]

It's not apples to oranges. It's like big apples to small apples. The mortgage crisis being the small apple compared to peak oil, which is a very big crisis. I realize the incredible faith you have in the free market, but there's no way a free market can handle peak oil. That's absurd.

Actually the market is perfectly suited to handling peak oil. The free market is all about pricing, and adjusting pricing based on supply and demand. If the supply drops, then the price will rise, and the demand will be adjusted to compensate. Look at what happened a year ago when the price of gasoline was up around $4/gal. Companies the shipped freight passed on increased costs to their customers, the customers either swallowed the charges or changed their buying habits. Individuals changed their habits, increased use of public transportation and car-pooling. Had this been an actual oil crisis and not just a commodities bubble, you would have seen the fruits of massive investment in energy technologies. After all, if oil is more valuable, there are profits to be had in finding oil. So investment capital would be poured into finding new sources, and research and development of alternative fuels.

The free market has its weaknesses, but a declining supply of a commodity is something the market is perfect for solving.

[Kidlicious]

Actually the market is perfectly suited to handling peak oil. The free market is all about pricing, and adjusting pricing based on supply and demand. If the supply drops, then the price will rise, and the demand will be adjusted to compensate. Look at what happened a year ago when the price of gasoline was up around $4/gal. Companies the shipped freight passed on increased costs to their customers, the customers either swallowed the charges or changed their buying habits. Individuals changed their habits, increased use of public transportation and car-pooling. Had this been an actual oil crisis and not just a commodities bubble, you would have seen the fruits of massive investment in energy technologies. After all, if oil is more valuable, there are profits to be had in finding oil. So investment capital would be poured into finding new sources, and research and development of alternative fuels.

The free market has its weaknesses, but a declining supply of a commodity is something the market is perfect for solving.

Aaaaaa.. $4/gal for gas is not peak oil bud. Try $20/gal mayby, who knows. The thing is that is would cause extreme chaos. No one would be investing ****. They would just be hoarding **** for the apocolypse. Only government intervention on a massive scale will prevent total breakdown of society.

[Barnabas]

There is still some good stuff here. Barnabas' post was good, f.e. A real-world experience of deflation. I've sure not experienced it personally.

But we would all be better off if some people would weigh more carefully what they choose to reply to. These string quotes are unbearable.

The difference between what happened in Argentina and what happens in the USA is that what happened in Argentina (those five years of recession with deflation) happened for artificial reasons.

Argentina had both budget and trade deficits because they had pegged their currency to the dollar in the early 90's , and that was a very popular policy.
Argentina had hyperinflation in the late 80's (I also experienced that) and pegging their currency to the dollar immediately killed inflation.

Having an overvalued currency allowed normal working class people, say, a hairdresser, to go on vacations to Miami, and people feared another hyperinflation, so the policy of keeping the peso pegged to the dollar continued for too long.
Finally, after that long recession of 1998 2002, with 25% unemployment and poverty jumping from 20 to 50% Argentina devaluated, deflation disappeared, inflation was born again, and the economy started to grow again right away.
The crisis only happened because of that stupid currency pegging.


But the USA does not have an easy answer like Argentina in 2002, devaluate and the crisis will be over.

With deflation, it was very very hard to find a job, and people who had jobs, worked in worse conditions, the owner of the company would tell you, I will cut your salary 30%, and if you don't like it, there are thousands of unemployed people out there who would gladly do your job for even less money.
That was the situation those years.