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**MrFun** · January 23, 2009, 17:02

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll View Post

A person choses, born into or switches from one lifestyle to another, religion say one thing and social circles say other things. The spectrum is wide and deep and varied on responses. Why is it acceptable for a person to be openly gay if they fit one "form" but ostricized if another?
Example:

I have heard people accept a person being Gay as long as they are not (Im not insulting or joking, merely referencing common terminology) a Flamer, a twink or a raging homosexual, (whatever that means)

Is this ok by you people here or not?

Another thing is if a man is attractive he is hawt but if not he should be ashamed for being gay, is this correct?

Lets say Bob enjoys being bisexual, females and males turn him on, is this not his choice and why do people hate him or abhor him or turn their back on him?

What is wrong if Mike doesnt have the sexual urges to engage a female but is attracted to submitting to a man, why is this so looked down upon by society?

I have many friends from many years and can tell you some of the sweetest and most transparently honest and sincere human beings are gay or lesbian or transgendered.

Its not funny but odd, a person knows someone, or they think so, and all is fine until they one day find out they are interested in same sex, all history is flushed away and they are now outcast, why is this acceptable?

I have heard things from any sides of the fence, as stated, I have some friends from Washington D C and spoke very frankly about certain events and situations and one of them told a person I know, that human cruelty is not only for the straight sect of our society but it is a human mechanism invoked when a person doesnt know exactly how to process a certain emotion welling within.

Brother Bruce

IMO, gay men who have to describe themselves as being "straight acting" are probably insecure with their sexual orientation or masculinity and do not realize how offensive the phrase "straight acting" can be to many other gay men who fully accept themselves. This is somewhat related to your question/comment about gays being okay as long as they are not "flamers."

I do not identify myself as being "straight acting" because I have no reason to ever want to act like something that I am not. But, I'm also not flamboyantly gay, although some people with good enough gaydar can get a sense that I am. And personally, I find the phrase "straight acting" offensive when I hear gay men use it, or read their profiles online. There's no need to be ashamed if others can tell that you're gay and there's no need to be ashamed that you ARE gay.

I also do not know about the whole "it's okay if he's gay if he's HOT" thing. There are gay men from unattractive, to average, to HOT who have no trouble having friends in the gay community and outside the gay community that I've personally met and have socialized with.

**Lorizael** · January 23, 2009, 17:21

Gay men should have sex with men. All other aspects of their personality should be determined by their genetics, upbringing, personal choices, and environment.

(I also believe that having and wanting to have sex with men is a product of genetics, upbringing, personal choices, and environment, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

**Monk** · January 23, 2009, 17:26

Originally posted by MrFun View Post

And personally, I find the phrase "straight acting" offensive when I hear gay men use it, or read their profiles online. There's no need to be ashamed if others can tell that you're gay and there's no need to be ashamed that you ARE gay.

But what's so offending? When a woman self-identifies as a tomboy, it doesn't mean she's not a woman anymore, or was ever ashamed to be one.

Now, I don't think I heard that term being used by any gay dude ever, but even if it happened, I can hardly imagine why that should be so upsetting.

**Monk** · January 23, 2009, 17:40

I have heard people accept a person being Gay as long as they are not (Im not insulting or joking, merely referencing common terminology) a Flamer, a twink or a raging homosexual, (whatever that means) Is this ok by you people here or not?

I heard that too, brother Bruce - the usual way this sad statement is put is 'I don't mind gays as long as they don't hit on ME!'.

The last time I heard that I asked the guy how many times this particular thing happened. He confirmed it never actually happened (he's not exactly the sexiest man around either, so no surprise), but seemingly that phrase was still important for him to make. Oh, sure he wasn't just including that part to mask any prejudice or insecurities of his own. Suuuuure...

**MrFun** · January 23, 2009, 20:32

Originally posted by Monk View Post

But what's so offending? When a woman self-identifies as a tomboy, it doesn't mean she's not a woman anymore, or was ever ashamed to be one.

Now, I don't think I heard that term being used by any gay dude ever, but even if it happened, I can hardly imagine why that should be so upsetting.

Why identify yourself as something that you're not? If you're gay, you're gay; not "straight acting." When I read profiles online of gay men I found initially to be interesting/attractive, I get turned off right away if they use the words "straight acting" to identify part of themselves.

I don't know if "tomboy" can be compared as the same type of thing as "straight acting." Are there women who find "tomboy" to be offensive?

**Q Classic** · January 23, 2009, 20:40

Originally posted by MrFun View Post

IMO, gay men who have to describe themselves as being "straight acting" are probably insecure with their sexual orientation or masculinity and do not realize how offensive the phrase "straight acting" can be to many other gay men who fully accept themselves. This is somewhat related to your question/comment about gays being okay as long as they are not "flamers."

*shrug* I don't describe myself as straight-acting, but I've been told I pass fairly well.

Apparently, if one more or less acts asexual in real life, it's assumed that they're straight--at first. Am I offended by it? Not really, since I've always viewed my Asian-ness and Geekdom as more defining characteristics, so. It is problematic, though, at gay bars, when I start worrying that I might come across as either too straight-laced to be of interest, or be the straight friend playing the wingman.

**Q Classic** · January 23, 2009, 20:41

Originally posted by Monk View Post

I heard that too, brother Bruce - the usual way this sad statement is put is 'I don't mind gays as long as they don't hit on ME!'.

The last time I heard that I asked the guy how many times this particular thing happened. He confirmed it never actually happened (he's not exactly the sexiest man around either, so no surprise), but seemingly that phrase was still important for him to make. Oh, sure he wasn't just including that part to mask any prejudice or insecurities of his own. Suuuuure...

That line doesn't bother me, either, though it does cause quite a bit of amusement on my part--usually, the boys who say that aren't the type of boys I or many other men would want, anyway.

**Q Classic** · January 23, 2009, 20:44

As far as bisexuals: I feel sorry for them, actually. There's a prejudice in the gay community that all bisexuals are either just going through a phase, or trying to be cool/doing it to get attention.

Sure, if you've been in love with one and then got dumped, I can see how that would hurt, but if they were up front about it, then it's something you should have accepted. Besides, just because you had a bad experience with one shouldn't color your perceptions of all the others.

**Jon Miller** · January 23, 2009, 20:48

I am fairly asexual as far as practice, and that seems to make people think that I might be homosexual (including family members).

As for the rest, I expect that by allowing gay marriage and as society becomes more accepting of homosexuals (both lesbian and gay varieties) that they will settle down into happy monogamous relationships and that the parts of 'gay culture' that I have problems with will be at the same level as the parts of heterosexual culture I have problems with.

As far as transexuals go, in all other cases when the mental reality disagrees with the physical reality we say that the person has mental problems but in this particular case we say that the physical reality is the problem? It seems inconsistent and unreasonable to me.

I think that bisexuals are all confused (either gay or straight) or hedonists. I mean, I think it is definitely true that if your goal with sex is just to have a good time you would best be served by being a bisexual. By confused I mean that their developed sexuality (combination of environment and inherent) conflicts with their inherent sexuality or is just unknown. I think a number of people think it is most reasonable to be a bisexual and go into it even though that isn't their inherent inclination.

JM

**Monk** · January 23, 2009, 20:48

Originally posted by MrFun View Post

Why identify yourself as something that you're not?

A lot of people do just that, and sometimes with good reason, but I don't think the question even applies here. People who say they are 'straight acting' are saying just what they are and what they do, the point presumably being that they don't act or look like the stereotypical gay dude. I really can't see the problem here.

I don't know if "tomboy" can be compared as the same type of thing as "straight acting." Are there women who find "tomboy" to be offensive?

Probably not, and maybe that's because there's no need for anybody to find that stuff offensive?

**Monk** · January 23, 2009, 21:02

JM, just who are you equating transvestites (I assume that's what you're talking about) with when you talk about people for whom the mental and physical reality don't match each other? It seems to me most dudes who want to be dudettes don't argue they weren't physically born a dude, so that doesn't imply any lack of abilities to percieve reality as it is. And surely you don't argue that there's any mental problem in wanting to be something you're currently not.

(Several edits after posting, sorry - it's late at night here!)

**Jon Miller** · January 23, 2009, 21:09

The physical reality is that they are a dude. They say that inside they are a woman. You haven't been reading transgendered lit. The whole point is that there is a claim that mental and physical don't match.

Generally we send such people to counseling, we don't do expensive surgery which doesn't actually even cause physically reality to match but rather makes an illusion that it matches.

This isn't healthy.

And it is a problem if you want to be a dolphin, to use a south park example.

If mental and physical matched, why would they want to change sex?

JM

**Boris Godunov** · January 23, 2009, 21:21

Originally posted by Monk View Post

Probably not, and maybe that's because there's no need for anybody to find that stuff offensive?

Gay men who call themselves "straight acting" aren't doing so out of some sort of counter-cultural bit of defiance, they do it because they're terrified of people thinking they have "stereotypical" gay mannerisms and it's therefore a threat to their masculinity.

Given the long history of "gay" being seen as a pejorative meant to identify weakness, saying "straight acting" is just reinforcing the stereotype that gay men are effeminate. I certainly don't think it's a helpful term.

**Monk** · January 23, 2009, 21:30

Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post

The physical reality is that they are a dude. The whole point is that there is a claim that mental and physical don't match.

I really can't see the problem of altering yourself to make you appear more like 'the inner you'. To a lesser degree the rest of us do that every day too.

Generally we send such people to counseling, we don't do expensive surgery which doesn't actually even cause physically reality to match but rather makes an illusion that it matches.

What's the problem here?

And it is a problem if you want to be a dolphin, to use a south park example.

Sure, if you honestly believe a change of sex is fundamentally the same as a change of species. Is that your position?

If mental and physical matched, why would they want to change sex?

Hint: They don't always match. That's the point here...

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