Linux

[KrazyHorse]

OO still sucks.

[Heresson]

Thank You all.

yes, I'm a noob.

I did try to find info, but it was all so confusing and meaningless to me that I decided to stop and the only thing I've learned is that Linux has something to do with Unix, but it is not Unix, that it was made by some Finn, but not all of it but only some core or whatever, that there are problems of compatibility (hence my question about games) but it is safer for internet use, that it is used by geeks and that it has something to do with pinguins.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Otherwise I'm stuck sshing into my department's network using putty and editing stuff using terminal emacs.

Which is admittedly what I'm doing right now because I'm too lazy to boot into linux.

I use cygwin from home/etc.

From work I use linux.

Oh, and I think that Microsoft Office (2007) is much better than Open Office.

JM

[Thue]

Originally posted by Asher

This is an absolute lie or at best deceptive.

Funny - that is how I see your response.

That assumption is a big one, it's a huge pain in the ass to find many programs packaged for your distro. Frequently with Debian in particular I've found it packaged for my distro, but prior versions of it. Then apt-get has to download a ****load of other dependencies just to get it to work, and frequently it just wouldn't (with cryptic errors, suggesting I force install, etc).

I have been very satisfied with it. I can almost always find what I need in the huge repository.

Yes, it will automatically install many needed dependencies, but why worry about them? They do not hurt you, and they will be automatically uninstalled when you don't need them any more.

apt-get and equivalent systems are ever so slightly easier to use in a small subset of cases: the program you're looking for is popular enough that it is regularly maintained in the repositories and you don't mind either browsing through terribly designed install package GUIs or you know the exact name of the package through the apt-get command line.

For almost all tasks I find that I have been able to find what I need in the "small subset", as you say (it is a huge subset!). And in the rare case where something does not have a Debian package I have been able to download a normal tar-ball.

Of course all hell breaks loose if I have to install something huge like openoffice which is not pre-packaged by Debian, but in practice I have not run into this need.

And yes, the GUIs for searching for packages are not perfect, but that is a minor cosmetic problem, and I can usually find what I need.

It's a nightmare to work with in the long term, especially as your system gets to be a few years old. Some programs ***** that they need GTK 2.2, some GTK 2.4...some need Qt installed at a specific version, some need gcc 3.0 some need gcc 2.4. It's dependency hell even thought apt-get tries to hide that it is, it's still incredibly convoluted and any such system will break, and when it does good luck trying to fix it unless you're a masochist or Linux geek.

I have found that my system stays stable no matter how much crap I install, and work across upgrades. It has very little of the fragility which a Windows system has when lots of programs have been installed and uninstalled.

It sounds to me like you are misusing the system in ways that has not been intended, by doing things you do not really understand. Like using packages not designed for it, and using --force to ignore problems. Of course that will mess everything up.

It is far easier for the vast majority of users to simply run an installer .exe/.msi and have that be done, or in the case of many apps simply run the .exe you download from the web.

I have the feeling that many Windows hackages are horribly made, which is why your Windows system will break and need regular reinstalls if you install many programs.

Downloading stuff from random webpages is also a security nightmare.

Linux apps are simply far too messy with dependencies for anyone to even try to pretend they are easier.

Linux apps are extremely simple to install if you stay inside the sandbox given by the distribution. This sounds constraining, but in practice I have found the sandbox (package repository) to be big enough to acceptable. I prefer the experience to Windows by far.

[Asher]

I'm really not interested in hearing you explain why all of the issues people have with Linux program maintenance are minor, considering it still remains the #1 problem with linux (and it is a fundamental problem).

Linux OSes are a wide-open architecture with no concept of standards. That's why it's free, that's why the quality isn't as good, that's why the polish isn't there, that's why the UIs are inconsistent, and that's why the only people to use and like Linux on the desktop are hardcore niche people better server by the geek community (eg, physicists, computer geeks).

This is also why Linux on the desktop will never come close to being mainstream. I can't tell you all of the reasons why you prefer Linux, but it probably has something to do with your inherent insanity and lack of taste in software, which explains why you think FreeCiv is a playable game as well. High standards are a good thing, embrace it and do not run from it, Thue...

[Thue]

I actually don't think Freeciv is a better game than SMAC or civ IV. I just think it is fun programming it.

And I truly do believe than standard package formats for installing programs is a thing Linux does far better than Windows. (As long as you keep within the repository, but as I said that is not usually a problem for me)

[Asher]

Originally posted by Thue
And I truly do believe than standard package formats for installing programs is a thing Linux does far better than Windows. (As long as you keep within the repository, but as I said that is not usually a problem for me)

How is a system that restricts where you can retrieve programs from better?

How is it better than MSI?

It's less powerful and more limited in scope. RPM is godawful and apt-get isn't too much better. I'm not a heavy Linux user, but every time I do try to install something on Linux it turns into a ****ing nightmare. I've had to edit my apt-get config files to point to extra repositories, google and try to find RPMs for more obscure software only to find they don't work on my system and recommend I try to force install it, which only ****s up my dependency trees for other apps I use. ****ing terrible.

[Thue]

I don't know if the MSI format is inherently better than Debian packages (which is what I know), but:
-It is my experience that Debian packages have a high quality of packages, so for example uninstall always works. Windows programs less so.
-With the Debian packages you get automatic security updates through the OS update, unlike windows
-You know you can trust packages from the Debian repository to not contain malware/adware, and to not try to take over your desktop or your browser startpage.
-You do not have to find and navigate random websites to find utilities. The descriptions, docs, etc of the programs are in (somewhat) standard formats and standard locations.
-There seem to be many more programs available on Linux as debian packages than on Windows as Windows installers, at least for the types of programs I need.

[onodera]

Can I use Linux without never having to look at a console screen, a makefile, or edit a config file by hand?
Can I get one of those sexy UIs people like to showcase on their screenshots out of the box? Will other programs use the native controls of this UI?
I'm using Gnumeric to perform precise calculations on Windows, and the way it doesn't use native controls annoys me. It looks foreign.
I have to agree with Asher, Linux cannot become a popular desktop choice until a company with an iron fist beats it into a shape and provides a stable set of features you can program against.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Thue
I don't know if the MSI format is inherently better than Debian packages (which is what I know), but:
-It is my experience that Debian packages have a high quality of packages, so for example uninstall always works. Windows programs less so.

My experience is the opposite of yours, with the additional qualifier that my INSTALLS fail far more with Debian packages than Windows ones.

-With the Debian packages you get automatic security updates through the OS update, unlike windows

There's clear anti-trust issues in Microsoft controlling the update mechanisms for non-Microsoft systems. Fortunately on Windows apps update themselves if they are competently designed, as the mechanism for this is included in the Windows APIs.

-You know you can trust packages from the Debian repository to not contain malware/adware, and to not try to take over your desktop or your browser startpage.

The whole concept of software repositories is the #1 strike against the system, not a benefit. Additionally, implicitly trusting a repository is a very bad idea as it's not completely secure and can (and has been) compromised.

-You do not have to find and navigate random websites to find utilities. The descriptions, docs, etc of the programs are in (somewhat) standard formats and standard locations.

It is far easier to "navigate random websites" to find utilities than to know the command line argument name for apt-get, or to struggle with the limited selection and terrible interface of the package manager UIs.

The concept of software repositories in Debian is completely identical to AOL's "Walled Garden" approach to the internet. It failed. It's limited, it's annoying, and it's unnecessary.

-There seem to be many more programs available on Linux as debian packages than on Windows as Windows installers, at least for the types of programs I need.

This shows just how little you understand what we are talking about.

[Asher]

Originally posted by onodera
Can I use Linux without never having to look at a console screen, a makefile, or edit a config file by hand?

Highly unlikely. I've always, always, always had to do this at one point in Linux.

Can I get one of those sexy UIs people like to showcase on their screenshots out of the box? Will other programs use the native controls of this UI?

There are no sexy UIs on Linux. There are, at best, slick ones but don't hold up under real use. I'm sure Thue will mention Compitiz or whatever it's called with amateurish 3D effects which are more annoying than useful.

I'm using Gnumeric to perform precise calculations on Windows, and the way it doesn't use native controls annoys me. It looks foreign.

There is no concept of native controls on Linux. There's two competing toolkits for controls, Qt and GTK, and both of them are ****ing ugly as sin.