Greenspan: No one could have predicted the crisis

[Arrian]

To flesh that out a bit...

Any theory that expects perfection (or anything particularly close to it) from people is doomed to failure. In my experience, hardcore libs tend to believe that people (individually and/or collectively in the form of markets) are rational. They aren't.

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

A better question is how you can call Greenspan dishonest.

[HalfLotus]

I agree that an honest free market system is not perfect, no human society or economy ever will be.

I see two fundamental choices: a centrally planned society/economy, which we know will not work because nobody is smart enough to plan or organize an entire society; and even if they were, the temptation for corruption is too strong in a position with so much power. If history has taught us anything, it is that power corrupts.

Second is the libertarian/free market (whatever you want to call it) view which is predicated on individual freedom and liberty, which I know to be right. And that its 'order' is created spontaneously and freely. i.e. Adam's Smith's 'invisible hand', a concept that goes back to ancient Chinese philosophy: " “Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone.” -Zhuangzi (369 BC - 286 BC)

Spontaneous order, emergent behavior, and natural order are the critical concepts here. These sound like wacky and impractical ideas at first, but after much study and thought, my sincere belief is that people know how to live their lives, and how to survive and thrive instinctively. We are very intelligent and capable human beings, not robots that need to be directed and programmed for succuss.

What is our alternative? A system dictated by 'experts' and 'leaders' or some nebulous 'collective'? I don't see those systems as viable at all.

[Kidlicious]

As far as either Keynes of Marx predicting this with their theories I think that's a stretch. The real problem is the derivatives. The system is totally different from the systems of their times. To credit either of them with predicting this you would have to find something in their theories that talks about how neo-liberals design systems that seem less risky to them, but in fact have a great deal of risk. Maybe Keynes said something about that, but I don't know of anything.

[HalfLotus]

Double post.

[Arrian]

These sound like wacky and impractical ideas at first

For good ****ing reason.

Look, I get your point about top-down control. Central planning is prone not just to error (as everyone is) but to massive, potentially catastrophic error. I get that.

The problem, however, is that even without the scary socialist stuff you seem so worried about, there were massive market failures. Without the eeeevil government being involved, those failures resulted in a degree of suffering for individuals that I (and a majority of my fellow Americans, I might add) find unacceptable. So, looking at two flawed systems, I'll take the flawed system that knows it is flawed over the one that seems to believe in fairy tales.

-Arrian

[HalfLotus]

Originally posted by Kidicious
A better question is how you can call Greenspan dishonest.

He was wrong about the long-term effects of his policy on the economy, so he's either stupid or lying. I don't think he's stupid.

In fact, early in his career he was a strong supporter of free markets and the gold standard. He abandoned those ideas when he went to work for the Fed. Look where it got us.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by HalfLotus


He was wrong about the long-term effects of his policy on the economy, so he's either stupid or lying. I don't think he's stupid.

In fact, early in his career he was a strong supporter of free markets and the gold standard. He abandoned those ideas when he went to work for the Fed. Look where it got us.

Free markets and the gold standard are stupid. You don't have any concept of what happened to the economy. The reason Greenspan ****ed up, as he said, is because he didn't understand the risk involved with these new investments. He didn't regulate the market enough. And that's because of a free market ideology.

Furthermore, you calling him a liar is just ridiculous. He's the only person thus far who has stood up and taken a portion of the blame for what happened.

[HalfLotus]

The market failures were a symptom of a much larger problem. Fix the problem and you won't have symptoms.

Anyhow, for people who are looking for an alternative explanation to what is occurring, it is out there, and it is not 'conspiracy theory' (another term devoid of any intellectual value).

There are also solutions to these problems which don't involve more rules and regulations, e.g. less freedom for individuals and their families.

There will always be men who are content to live under the rule of others, and I cannot blame them, for it is all they have ever known.

If there are some here at 'poly who are confident that they can live their own lives just fine without interference and control, I suggest checking out of some of the concepts and links I posted. It is a long journey, but a worthwhile one.

[Kidlicious]

You know the thing about freedom is first you have to put food on everyones plate to eat.

You don't seem to be willing to back up your theories, but you go on claiming people are dishonest with no proof, and saying that's not a conspiracy theory.

[Arrian]

There are also solutions to these problems which don't involve more rules and regulations, e.g. less freedom for individuals and their families.

By "individuals and their families" you mean "businesses, particularly really big ones in the financial sector."

If there are some here at 'poly who are confident that they can live their own lives just fine without interference and control, I suggest checking out of some of the concepts and links I posted.

And without any sort of safety net, as well. You mention only the downsides of living in our society, and omit the good stuff.

You want to be a rugged mountain man type living without all those horrible rules and stuff? Go right ahead. Round up a bunch of your fellow libertarians, buy yourselves a chunk of some 3rd world country's land, and set up your society. We'll watch. If it works, hurray! Well done! You will have shown us the light.

If not, well, sucks to be you. Don't expect us to help you (that would be contrary to your ideology anyway).

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Darius871


Nah, what's going on now is a mere hiccup compared to what that guy predicted, different in not only degree but in nature. Give it some time.

The market seems to be pricing in a depression.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You don't seem to be willing to back up your theories

Coming from you that's rich.