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  • #61
    Edit, I'm goint to try to put what Propaganda said on this new page because its really well said. Here goes...


    Originally posted by Propaganda
    How can anyone still espouse the value of free markets? Has history not be a lesson to you? Remember the 1930s or even the last 8 years?

    How can you support an economic system that drives you to spend, so you still have a job tomorrow? Or one that bails out bad actors, with your money, because of their recklessness and greed, while you barely make ends meet?
    Is it so you can have a car, a yellow house with a white picket fence, or three HDTVs? Don't you think that this is antithetical to our life's' purpose, and even paradoxical?

    I can honestly say that I miss the Soviet Union because I had a rich social life, with apartment blocks of friends who my family and I considered family, and we were better off without all the crap you people in the US consider to be a "necessity".
    Propaganda, I've heard that view expressed before and I admit it has a certain attraction. However I wouldn't want the Soviets on me about my faith, or whether I wanted to go to the Philippines to get warmed up, or all the little things that true freedom, not just freedom from want, allows.

    Though bravo, well said.
    Long time member @ Apolyton
    Civilization player since the dawn of time

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    • #62
      Thank you, Lancer, for your sincerity. I appreciate it.

      I must agree with you. The Soviet Union was imperfect and left much to be desired, and obviously, no social or economic system can be perfect, but it can be perfected. Any social economic system, in my opinion, must have a purpose that serves all mankind, not just the few. Don't you agree?

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Propaganda while you barely make ends meet?
        Ummm... I don't think you have to cry for us.

        But thanks for your concern anyway.

        If the Soviet system were so great in facilitating happiness, it wouldn't have collapsed. Likewise, the durability of the free market system indicates that it facilitates happiness very well. Pretty simple, really.
        Last edited by DanS; October 19, 2008, 22:58.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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        • #64
          Anyone that would have had Gorbachev as their head of state probably would not have been drinking cocktails, but throwing them.


          EDIT: DanS, stop EDITING your posts!

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          • #65
            I'm afraid I'm not sympathetic. It was the SU system that allowed for such a concentration of power unanswerable to the public will.
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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            • #66
              It wasn't the system, it was us, the people. Just don't let it happen to you.

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              • #67
                Yes, it was you, the people. But finding a starting point for that concentration of power with regard to Russia seems like a difficult proposition. It had long been part of the system before Gorby came along.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                • #68
                  It started with Khrushev, who had little public support, even within the Party. Regardless of what you want to say about Stalin, he had a popular mandate, and enormous public support. After he denounced Stalin, all that we toiled for was slowly being dismantled. Only the bureaucrats gave him support, because they were enormously enriched in the process.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Propaganda
                    Thank you, Lancer, for your sincerity. I appreciate it.

                    I must agree with you. The Soviet Union was imperfect and left much to be desired, and obviously, no social or economic system can be perfect, but it can be perfected. Any social economic system, in my opinion, must have a purpose that serves all mankind, not just the few. Don't you agree?
                    Yes, absolutely. The trick is to take the filth away from the filthy rich without making it pointless to work hard for the greater good when you see those around you getting a free ride on your broken back.

                    I always admire the ants in the back of my mind when discussing this sort of stuff, but I wouldn't want their lack of recreation. Everyone pitches in for a common purpose. You don't have rich ants leaching off worker ants, you don't have lazy ants sucking the public tit, lawyer ants at your door as soon as you get ahead trying to rip you off for some crook, or worker ants telling the queen that the army ants serve no purpose.

                    Trouble is, no vacation time.
                    Long time member @ Apolyton
                    Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Propaganda
                      How can anyone still espouse the value of free markets? Has history not be a lesson to you? Remember the 1930s or even the last 8 years?

                      How can you support an economic system that drives you to spend, so you still have a job tomorrow? Or one that bails out bad actors, with your money, because of their recklessness and greed, while you barely make ends meet?
                      Is it so you can have a car, a yellow house with a white picket fence, or three HDTVs? Don't you think that this is antithetical to our life's' purpose, and even paradoxical?

                      I can honestly say that I miss the Soviet Union because I had a rich social life, with apartment blocks of friends who my family and I considered family, and we were better off without all the crap you people in the US consider to be a "necessity".
                      Because on teh whole free markets tend to lead to more freedom that in itself is enough.

                      I'm sorry that you miss theold SU system however one thing is true you wouldn't be posting here if it was in place.
                      Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
                      Douglas Adams (Influential author)

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                      • #71
                        A lot of people weren't as happy as propaganda either. That's why alcoholism was so high, and still is. It's very high in the US too, and a lot of people aren't very happy here either.
                        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                        • #72
                          Well, you only have to look back at Soviet history and its existence to see that history has not been particularly kind to Soviet people.

                          Consider that, as a country, the USSR was born in a world war, suffered a devastating Civil War, lived through a famine and grueling and unprecedented industrial growth, survived another world war, and not only survived, but won, rebuilt and became the 2nd power in the world, and then had to fight a political and economic war with the richest country in the world, and in spite of the insurmountable odds, we persevered. Unfortunately, now, it had all been forgotten and discarded.

                          And that, in effect, should answer the question, "why do we drink?"
                          Last edited by Propaganda; October 20, 2008, 05:25.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Propaganda
                            And that, in effect, should answer the question, "why do we drink?"
                            My point was that the government could have made things better for the people, and not just made a bunch of cheap vodka for everyone.
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Kidicious


                              My point was that the government could have made things better for the people, and not just made a bunch of cheap vodka for everyone.
                              Vodka wasn't cheap. It was almost three roubles, average blue collar salary being 100.
                              Vodka is obscenely cheap right now. You can get it for 100 roubles, average blue collar salary being 10000.
                              Graffiti in a public toilet
                              Do not require skill or wit
                              Among the **** we all are poets
                              Among the poets we are ****.

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                              • #75
                                Someone gave the state of Oregon control over booze so a bottle of decent rum is $36, and I've been dry for months. I guess that's good right?
                                Long time member @ Apolyton
                                Civilization player since the dawn of time

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