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If Russians reached the Moon first would we still have a USSR?

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  • #1

    If Russians reached the Moon first would we still have a USSR?

    Well? How would such a symbolic victory affect history and space exploration? Also what would be the effect on American self-esteem and culture? Would the USSR be perceived at the top of the tech ladder?

    My scenario:
    Lets assume, that the father of the Russian space program got to live a few years longer, that the Russians abandoned the concept of groups competing with each other for favour and resources and created a NASA-like breurocracy in the 1960's and that a major accident slowed down the Apollo program.

    The red flag is planted in Lunar soil in 1970, what happens next?
    Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
    The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
    The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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  • #2
    U.S. gets to moon, leaves robot tank to make sure those stinking commies don't land there again.
    You've just proven signature advertising works!

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    • #3
      Self-defeating old Party leadership nonetheless fails to provide people with basic consumer goods at an acceptable level, at some point public pressure for reform becomes overwhelming, and we're back at roughly the same outcome.

      Maybe, maybe the heightened degree of Soviet pride allows something resembling Perestroika & Glasnost to take its course without a revolt-inducing coup, in which case we get a more China-esque success story. But that's about it.
      Unbelievable!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Seedle
        U.S. gets to moon, leaves robot tank to make sure those stinking commies don't land there again.
        Russians send their own better lunar tank. The WW3 starts on the Moon in 2002 when the US nuke New Moscow on the pretext of the Russians building cloaking devices outlawed by the treaty of Origania.
        Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
        The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
        The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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        • #5
          > history forum

          It would only piss off Americans even more than the disgrace of the Sputnik. They'd pump zillions of dollars in another mad wasteful space project.
          "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
          "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Darius871
            Self-defeating old Party leadership nonetheless fails to provide people with basic consumer goods at an acceptable level, at some point public pressure for reform becomes overwhelming, and we're back at roughly the same outcome.

            Maybe, maybe the heightened degree of national pride allows something resembling Perestroika & Glasnost to take its course without a revolt-inducing coup, in which case we get a more China-esque success story.
            I never said it would, but I think its a safe bet that the collaps might be pushed into the future for years, and should the time of collaps be pushed long enough for a rise in oli prices the USSR may be alive in alternative 2008. Remember Russia was always an energy superpower, "cheap" oil is one of the causes of the Soviet collaps.

            Again I'm also interested in how this affects other nations around the world. The US, nations that in our history almost turned commie, the general pace of technological development, ect.

            Originally posted by Darius871

            Maybe, maybe the heightened degree of national pride allows something resembling Perestroika & Glasnost to take its course without a revolt-inducing coup, in which case we get a more China-esque success story.
            Well strong nationalism is a feature of modern China but I think other things would have to change. I can't say they couldn't, since this time line would be quite different but I do think it would be unilkley that you would see a China like USSR.
            Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
            The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
            The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by Traianvs

              It would only piss off Americans even more than the disgrace of the Sputnik and Yuri's flight They'd pump billions of dollars in another mad wasteful space project.
              FTFY- the space program event at its height was rather cheap compared to the favorite superpower pass time of installing tin pot dictators in third world countries and engaging in a arms race.

              Which one exactly?

              Our USSR tried to pretend that it wasn't interested in landing a man on the moon in the frist place, as consolation prizes they tried the follwing:

              -Sent Probes to other planets first
              -Started several major space station programs

              neither worked, I think they wouldn't for the US either

              Getting to the Moon second, in itself would not be big
              Mars was achievable but not before the late 1980's, and by then perceived Russian space supremacy would have lasted for nearly 30 years, would the US taxpayer have the will to embark on another decade long project?
              Wouldn't the US just give up? Wouldn't people start considering that maybe a centralized economy is better at high tech achievements?
              Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
              The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
              The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by Traianvs
                > history forum
                Nope, this is primarily about the possible alternative development of space exploration and technology. The alternative history speculation is secondary.
                Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Heraclitus


                  Russians send their own better lunar tank. The WW3 starts on the Moon in 2002 when the US nuke New Moscow on the pretext of the Russians building cloaking devices outlawed by the treaty of Origania.
                  If you are referring to the Organian peace treaty, then, uhh, no. It said nothing about cloaking devices. Of course, you may be making a SG1 reference (or some other Sci Fi universe), but if you are, google can't find it. Or maybe you were just making something up that sounded sci-fiey.

                  God, I'm criticizing the possible use of an obscure Star Trek reference that was used, if it was used, in a joking manner. I am officially a hopeless geek.
                  You've just proven signature advertising works!

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                  • #10
                    The Soviet economy still crumbles.
                    It could not, cannot, and would never be able to compete with free markets.

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                    • #11
                      Nope. They would have mined all of the precious moon gold and used that to save their wretched economy.
                      Tutto nel mondo è burla

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                      • #12
                        That didn't work for the Spanish. All their gold just ended up going to countries which produced things they couldn't.

                        Moon pies and moon cheese however...
                        Unbelievable!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zkribbler
                          The Soviet economy still crumbles.
                          It could not, cannot, and would never be able to compete with free markets.
                          Again I never said it wouldn't happen eventually, but can't you admit that "we got to the moon first" was big boost to US patriotism, confidence and international respect.

                          If the USSR got that it might have lingered on to the late 1990's.
                          Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                          The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                          The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Darius871
                            That didn't work for the Spanish. All their gold just ended up going to countries which produced things they couldn't.
                            But the Moon would end up speaking Russian and being a source of unwanted illegal immigrants for the US.
                            Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                            The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                            The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Seedle


                              If you are referring to the Organian peace treaty, then, uhh, no. It said nothing about cloaking devices. Of course, you may be making a SG1 reference (or some other Sci Fi universe), but if you are, google can't find it. Or maybe you were just making something up that sounded sci-fiey.

                              God, I'm criticizing the possible use of an obscure Star Trek reference that was used, if it was used, in a joking manner. I am officially a hopeless geek.
                              Would it annoy you more even more if I added to the mix a misspelled Star Wars and inappropriate D&D reference too?
                              Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                              The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                              The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                              Comment

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