Turkish court bans Richard Dawkins website

[Elok]

Not really. It's not religion's fault at all, it's a common trait of human beings of any persuasion under the proper socio-economic circumstances. People tend to forget that, though Galileo was persecuted by the Pope, it wasn't for contradicting church doctrine. It was for...okay, it was actually for being an ass and publicly mocking the most powerful man in Europe, but it was ostensibly for contradicting Aristotle, Ptolemy and various other long-dead representatives of the Western intellectual tradition. The Bible doesn't really say what revolves around what.

And to use your metaphor, I'm not claiming that we should hold Iran blameless for specific deeds. I'm saying that we shouldn't think getting rid of Iran's current government will solve the deeper problems of the region. Capische?

[David Floyd]

Not really. It's not religion's fault at all, it's a common trait of human beings of any persuasion under the proper socio-economic circumstances. People tend to forget that, though Galileo was persecuted by the Pope, it wasn't for contradicting church doctrine. It was for...okay, it was actually for being an ass and publicly mocking the most powerful man in Europe, but it was ostensibly for contradicting Aristotle, Ptolemy and various other long-dead representatives of the Western intellectual tradition. The Bible doesn't really say what revolves around what.

You're right, but the Church did. He contradicted Aristotle and Ptolemy because they were WRONG. Instead of listening to him and being open to science, the Church persecuted him.

And to use your metaphor, I'm not claiming that we should hold Iran blameless for specific deeds. I'm saying that we shouldn't think getting rid of Iran's current government will solve the deeper problems of the region. Capische?

Yeah, but it will solve the current problems with Iran. Are you saying that we should never confront aggressive regimes, ever, because it won't matter in the long run?

[Elok]

Originally posted by David Floyd
You're right, but the Church did. He contradicted Aristotle and Ptolemy because they were WRONG. Instead of listening to him and being open to science, the Church persecuted him.

Largely because he was an idiot and mocked the Pope in writing, but I guess that's beside the point. Not many people were open to science in those days. The church was the authority figure at the time, but do you believe that if for some reason the late medieval/renaissance world were run by secular academics who believed in heliocentrism, worshiped the ground the ancient thinkers walked on (as most of Western Europe did in those days), and had power comparable to the Pope's, things would have gone totally differently? I don't.

Yeah, but it will solve the current problems with Iran. Are you saying that we should never confront aggressive regimes, ever, because it won't matter in the long run?

Actually, I doubt it would in Iran's specific case. Whatever regime replaced it would no doubt be just as radical, anti-Western and anti-Israel, and in the meantime you'd have lots of nuclear material unaccounted for in the chaos. But that too is beside the point, it's just a result of the Middle East being FUBAR. I'm certainly not suggesting that we should knuckle under to any aggression. I'm saying that blaming religion is the easy way out and more often than not doesn't reflect reality. Reality is a bit more complicated.

[David Floyd]

Largely because he was an idiot and mocked the Pope in writing, but I guess that's beside the point. Not many people were open to science in those days. The church was the authority figure at the time, but do you believe that if for some reason the late medieval/renaissance world were run by secular academics who believed in heliocentrism, worshiped the ground the ancient thinkers walked on (as most of Western Europe did in those days), and had power comparable to the Pope's, things would have gone totally differently? I don't.

Me either, but the reality is that apparently, religious fanatics haven't changed much, whereas secular academics have.

I'm certainly not suggesting that we should knuckle under to any aggression. I'm saying that blaming religion is the easy way out and more often than not doesn't reflect reality. Reality is a bit more complicated.

True, but when a certain religion or religious group is oppressing people or otherwise causing problems, it's perfectly appropriate to castigate that particular religion.