Alternate universes with alternate historical political outcomes.

[Lancer]

Very interesting and I believe accurate. Thanks Dr Strangelove.

[fed1943]

Indeed. A lot of Europeans writers and philosophers agreed with

Revolution and Liberties in theory but also said that actually would

be dangerous or impossible.

American example showed everybody it was very possible.

[Heraclitus]

What would have happened if the Communist revolution in Germany would have beaten off the Entante forces?

[Vesayen]

What if Gore won the 2000 election?

Let me rephrase. What if Gore was not cheated out of his victory in the 2000 election?

On a more serious note. What if Martin Luther did not nail his complaints to that church door?

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Vesayen
What if Gore won the 2000 election?

Let me rephrase. What if Gore was not cheated out of his victory in the 2000 election?

It's strange - the very nanosecond that I saw , I knew Gore 2000 would be the first thing in your post, so either I'm psychic or you're a predictable hack. I'll let you decide which.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Lancer
Interesting stuff.

Hannibal winning, that would have changed alot. I doubt Carthage would have been as interested as Rome was in holding back the barbs in western europe as long.

This is why "What ifs" are sort of... pointless. The Carthaginians were Phoenician colonists. What they were interested in was trade above all. Carthage would always stay a trade empire, sort of like the Portuguese, while the Romans were sort of like the Spanish. That said. We simply can't know what the Carthaginian senate would have decided had they defeated Rome.

Simply because we have no literary sources that would enlighten us on that. Most likely they would have reduced Rome to a vassal state, subservient to Carthage, but with a Carthaginian mercenary force to control the area (and its trade in particular). But who knows internal power struggles would have turned Carthage into an expansionist power, eventually swallowing its own mother city in Phoenicia? It's difficult to fathom, because the symbolic bond between mother city and colony is almost sacred, but over time...

Thing is we just don't know. Some individuals with personal ambitions, some unforeseen catastrophies or whatever could have caused a shift in Carthaginian actions. Hannibal's military campaign itself was never expansionist in any case. He swayed many italian allies of Rome into joining him, but only because he was a "freedom fighter". He would free everyone from the mighty Roman yoke. As far as Hannibal would go, he would not gain significant territorial dominance over continental Europe (apart from Spain.. but that was merely inhabited by unorganized Celtiberians).

[Lancer]

Carthage had the luxury of the med to protect them from German barbarians. When the Germans invaded I don't see Carthage caring as much as Rome did. The Carthaginians can trade with whoever is in power, why should they care? So barbarism takes root in europe centuries earlier if Carthage beats Rome.

Maybe.

[Solomwi]

Abraham trips, hits his head on a rock and dies, childless, a forgotten man in a forgotten field.

Sticking with the religious theme, Mary miscarries.

[Supr49er]

The Native Americans band together and expel colonists in North America, and the Aztecs Mayans, and Incans stop the Spanish.

How long before the Europeans began an invasion in force?

[Lancer]

You guys should not just ask questions, but provide theories we can shred.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Supr49er
How long before the Europeans began an invasion in force?

Europeans didn't have to invade in force, as demonstrated by the overthrow by Cortez and Pizarro's minute forces of the two most powerful empires of the Americas.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Lancer
Carthage had the luxury of the med to protect them from German barbarians. When the Germans invaded I don't see Carthage caring as much as Rome did. The Carthaginians can trade with whoever is in power, why should they care? So barbarism takes root in europe centuries earlier if Carthage beats Rome.

Maybe.

Dunno, the Germans wouldn't make much of a trading partner compared to Rome.

[Lancer]

True, but you could just give them a few beads in exchange for pelts and stuff.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Europeans didn't have to invade in force, as demonstrated by the overthrow by Cortez and Pizarro's minute forces of the two most powerful empires of the Americas.

The european invasion was primarily biological, yes?

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Europeans didn't have to invade in force, as demonstrated by the overthrow by Cortez and Pizarro's minute forces of the two most powerful empires of the Americas.

They did need the help of the subjugated people in the Aztec cause at least. My history professor was quite clear on that when he had his lecture on the topic a couple of months ago.